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post #41 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-20-2006, 06:26 PM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Quote:
That Guy - 3/20/2006 6:06 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 3/20/2006 1:01 PM

So you're an isolationist then?
If not, I don't consider "morally vacuous" name calling.
I'm a pragmatist. This doesn't mean I want to retreat from the world. It means I have no desire to achieve ideological ends that have no redeeming value to my state. It means that we should conduct foreign policy with a mind toward extracting value for US citizens, not Iraqis or Israelis.

Having a democracy in the the tyranical cesspool that is the Middle East is of long term value to the US.
Defending friends has redeeming qualities and abandoning them to the Islamic death cult is cowardly.




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post #42 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-20-2006, 06:36 PM Thread Starter
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Quote:
chiphomme - 3/20/2006 8:26 PM

Quote:
That Guy - 3/20/2006 6:06 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 3/20/2006 1:01 PM

So you're an isolationist then?
If not, I don't consider "morally vacuous" name calling.
I'm a pragmatist. This doesn't mean I want to retreat from the world. It means I have no desire to achieve ideological ends that have no redeeming value to my state. It means that we should conduct foreign policy with a mind toward extracting value for US citizens, not Iraqis or Israelis.

Having a democracy in the the tyranical cesspool that is the Middle East is of long term value to the US.
Defending friends has redeeming qualities and abandoning them to the Islamic death cult is cowardly.



Again Chiphomme, who are the tyranical cesspool? Who is saying that the US should abondon Israel? All I want to see is a fair approach to this problem like I described above. If that's too much and it takes bigger balls let me know so I can cut them off just for you and play sissy...
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post #43 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-20-2006, 06:56 PM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

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Shabah - 3/20/2006 8:36 PM


Again Chiphomme, who are the tyranical cesspool? Who is saying that the US should abondon Israel? All I want to see is a fair approach to this problem like I described above. If that's too much and it takes bigger balls let me know so I can cut them off just for you and play sissy...

How many democracies are in the Middle East, again?
Subtract those and you have your answer.

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post #44 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-20-2006, 07:04 PM Thread Starter
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Quote:
chiphomme - 3/20/2006 8:56 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 3/20/2006 8:36 PM


Again Chiphomme, who are the tyranical cesspool? Who is saying that the US should abondon Israel? All I want to see is a fair approach to this problem like I described above. If that's too much and it takes bigger balls let me know so I can cut them off just for you and play sissy...

How many democracies are in the Middle East, again?
Subtract those and you have your answer.
My bad Chiphomme, I must have been lying about those countries I listed, can you tell me again which countries are a democracy in the ME, I seem to have a distorted idea about this and I want to learn from you, please do tell me...
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post #45 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-20-2006, 08:27 PM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Quote:
Shabah - 3/20/2006 9:04 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 3/20/2006 8:56 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 3/20/2006 8:36 PM


Again Chiphomme, who are the tyranical cesspool? Who is saying that the US should abondon Israel? All I want to see is a fair approach to this problem like I described above. If that's too much and it takes bigger balls let me know so I can cut them off just for you and play sissy...

How many democracies are in the Middle East, again?
Subtract those and you have your answer.
My bad Chiphomme, I must have been lying about those countries I listed, can you tell me again which countries are a democracy in the ME, I seem to have a distorted idea about this and I want to learn from you, please do tell me...

What are you babbling about?
My point, which you're not quite grasping, is that the US should protect a free and democratic Israel because they're free and democratic. Get it? They are completely surrounded by hostile countries, most of which are despotic and driven by nutty tribal religion.



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post #46 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-21-2006, 06:06 AM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Quote:
Shabah - 3/20/2006 7:28 PM

Quote:
430 - 3/20/2006 7:20 PM

Quote:
That Guy - 3/20/2006 12:29 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 3/20/2006 11:27 AM

If you think supporting democracies against nasty Islamic states that swear to destroy it is a "big whoop" than you're morally vacuous.

Sorry Chip. I'm a self interested realist. Thanks for the name calling.
If you want to support your favorite democracy against those "nasty islamic states" by all means feel free to move there and take up arms. Just don't freakin ask me to support you or anyone else with my tax dollars. As far as I'm concerned, we have enough of our own problems without taking up Israel's battles.

I honestly can't see what difference it would make to the United States whether Israel's around or not. I'm not saying there isn't one, I just don't see it. Any ideas?
Better to support Israel than many other things we spend our tax dollars on. Personally I do not see it as a blunder to have given the land back.

I tell you what if I don't have to support all those lazy fucks on welfare, pay into medicaide, or medicare you don't have to pay to support Israel.
You should have compassion towards your people and get them off welfare through education and access to it. You have a cultural problem in the US not a lazy ass attitude. The problem with countries full of yupies like you is that they tend to try to be blind to the people with lesser means because they percieve them as pests and hurdles for their own selfish agendas.
So next time 430 your country proposes to solve the ME problem maybe it should look down to it's populace that it neglected, take care of them first and prove that it can do that. I don't want the US's help, it has proven over and over that it is incompetent!
Everyone in this country has access to education. Everyone can afford to go to college with all the loans and financial aid. The opportunity is there for everyone. Too many people choose not to make use of it. I am all for helping those that want to help themselves but a large number of people just want handouts. I have seen plenty of this behavior in both urban and rural US. Hell, I have friends and relatives that on a daily basis deal with people trying to milk the system one way or another.

There is no blind eye turned to these people by anyone that I know. There is frustration, maybe some contempt and disdain. But there comes a time where you cut your loses. You can only try and help people that don't want to help themselves for so long before your grow disgusted and give up.

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post #47 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-21-2006, 07:02 AM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Quote:
430 - 3/21/2006 8:06 AM

Quote:
Shabah - 3/20/2006 7:28 PM

Quote:
430 - 3/20/2006 7:20 PM

Quote:
That Guy - 3/20/2006 12:29 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 3/20/2006 11:27 AM

If you think supporting democracies against nasty Islamic states that swear to destroy it is a "big whoop" than you're morally vacuous.

Sorry Chip. I'm a self interested realist. Thanks for the name calling.
If you want to support your favorite democracy against those "nasty islamic states" by all means feel free to move there and take up arms. Just don't freakin ask me to support you or anyone else with my tax dollars. As far as I'm concerned, we have enough of our own problems without taking up Israel's battles.

I honestly can't see what difference it would make to the United States whether Israel's around or not. I'm not saying there isn't one, I just don't see it. Any ideas?
Better to support Israel than many other things we spend our tax dollars on. Personally I do not see it as a blunder to have given the land back.

I tell you what if I don't have to support all those lazy fucks on welfare, pay into medicaide, or medicare you don't have to pay to support Israel.
You should have compassion towards your people and get them off welfare through education and access to it. You have a cultural problem in the US not a lazy ass attitude. The problem with countries full of yupies like you is that they tend to try to be blind to the people with lesser means because they percieve them as pests and hurdles for their own selfish agendas.
So next time 430 your country proposes to solve the ME problem maybe it should look down to it's populace that it neglected, take care of them first and prove that it can do that. I don't want the US's help, it has proven over and over that it is incompetent!
Everyone in this country has access to education. Everyone can afford to go to college with all the loans and financial aid. The opportunity is there for everyone. Too many people choose not to make use of it. I am all for helping those that want to help themselves but a large number of people just want handouts. I have seen plenty of this behavior in both urban and rural US. Hell, I have friends and relatives that on a daily basis deal with people trying to milk the system one way or another.

There is no blind eye turned to these people by anyone that I know. There is frustration, maybe some contempt and disdain. But there comes a time where you cut your loses. You can only try and help people that don't want to help themselves for so long before your grow disgusted and give up.
Yep.

B
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post #48 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-21-2006, 02:21 PM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Shabah, while I disagree with some of the things you say (Israel tried to exerminate the Palestinians? One on hand you are saying they are a military might, but on the other hand how much could they have used that might if everyone is still there?), I have to say you're dead-on with one point.

Israel needs to stop playing the persectured. They have their own state and the means to defend it. The Palestinians need to stop killing civilians and blowing whatever chance they have for appropriate sympathy and being seen as treated unfairly, which they are. The Arab nations need to start helping, and stop stirring the pot with rhetoric.

The other thing that you said that's accurate is that they need economic incentive, trade, etc. to stop killing each other. They also need some balancing of wealth. If one side lives in ghettos and the other in relative propserity, one side is always going to feel downtrodden, and the other superior.

Imagine this...if the Arab nations gave as much aid to the Palestinians as they USA gives to Israel (and they can afford to, certainly in aggregate), what would the situation look like today?

Bruce
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post #49 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-21-2006, 05:20 PM Thread Starter
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Here is a follow up from UPI:
WASHINGTON, March 20 (UPI) -- Two of America's top scholars have published a searing attack on the role and power of Washington's pro-Israel lobby in a British journal, warning that its "decisive" role in fomenting the Iraq war is now being repeated with the threat of action against Iran. And they say that the Lobby is so strong that they doubt their article would be accepted in any U.S.-based publication.

Professor John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago, author of "The Tragedy of Great Power Politics" and Professor Stephen Walt of Harvard's Kenney School, and author of "Taming American Power: The Global Response to U.S. Primacy," are leading figures American in academic life.

They claim that the Israel lobby has distorted American policy and operates against American interests, that it has organized the funneling of more than $140 billion dollars to Israel and "has a stranglehold" on the U.S. Congress, and its ability to raise large campaign funds gives its vast influence over Republican and Democratic administrations, while its role in Washington think tanks on the Middle East dominates the policy debate.

And they say that the Lobby works ruthlessly to suppress questioning of its role, to blacken its critics and to crush serious debate about the wisdom of supporting Israel in U.S. public life.

"Silencing skeptics by organizing blacklists and boycotts -- or by suggesting that critics are anti-Semites -- violates the principle of open debate on which democracy depends," Walt and Mearsheimer write.

"The inability of Congress to conduct a genuine debate on these important issues paralyses the entire process of democratic deliberation. Israel's backers should be free to make their case and to challenge those who disagree with them, but efforts to stifle debate by intimidation must be roundly condemned," they add, in the 12,800-word article published in the latest issue of The London Review of Books.

The article focuses strongly on the role of the "neo-conservatives" within the Bush administration in driving the decision to launch the war on Iraq.

"The main driving force behind the war was a small band of neo-conservatives, many with ties to the Likud," Mearsheimer and Walt argue." Given the neo-conservatives' devotion to Israel, their obsession with Iraq, and their influence in the Bush administration, it isn't surprising that many Americans suspected that the war was designed to further Israeli interests."

"The neo-conservatives had been determined to topple Saddam even before Bush became president. They caused a stir early in 1998 by publishing two open letters to Clinton, calling for Saddam's removal from power. The signatories, many of whom had close ties to pro-Israel groups like JINSA (Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs) or WINEP (Washington Institute for Near Eastern Policy), and who included Elliot Abrams, John Bolton, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Bernard Lewis, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz, had little trouble persuading the Clinton administration to adopt the general goal of ousting Saddam. But they were unable to sell a war to achieve that objective. They were no more able to generate enthusiasm for invading Iraq in the early months of the Bush administration. They needed help to achieve their aim. That help arrived with 9/11. Specifically, the events of that day led Bush and Cheney to reverse course and become strong proponents of a preventive war," Walt and Mearsheimer write.

The article, which is already stirring furious debate in U.S. academic and intellectual circles, also explores the historical role of the Lobby.

"For the past several decades, and especially since the Six-Day War in 1967, the centerpiece of US Middle Eastern policy has been its relationship with Israel," the article says.

"The combination of unwavering support for Israel and the related effort to spread 'democracy' throughout the region has inflamed Arab and Islamic opinion and jeopardized not only U.S. security but that of much of the rest of the world. This situation has no equal in American political history. Why has the U.S. been willing to set aside its own security and that of many of its allies in order to advance the interests of another state?" Professors Walt and Mearsheimer add.

"The thrust of U.S. policy in the region derives almost entirely from domestic politics, and especially the activities of the 'Israel Lobby'. Other special-interest groups have managed to skew foreign policy, but no lobby has managed to divert it as far from what the national interest would suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. interests and those of the other country - in this case, Israel -- are essentially identical," they add.

They argue that far from being a strategic asset to the United States, Israel "is becoming a strategic burden" and "does not behave like a loyal ally." They also suggest that Israel is also now "a liability in the war on terror and the broader effort to deal with rogue states.

"Saying that Israel and the U.S. are united by a shared terrorist threat has the causal relationship backwards: the US has a terrorism problem in good part because it is so closely allied with Israel, not the other way around," they add. "Support for Israel is not the only source of anti-American terrorism, but it is an important one, and it makes winning the war on terror more difficult. There is no question that many al-Qaida leaders, including Osama bin Laden, are motivated by Israel's presence in Jerusalem and the plight of the Palestinians. Unconditional support for Israel makes it easier for extremists to rally popular support and to attract recruits."




They question the argument that Israel deserves support as the only democracy in the Middle East, claiming that "some aspects of Israeli democracy are at odds with core American values. Unlike the US, where people are supposed to enjoy equal rights irrespective of race, religion or ethnicity, Israel was explicitly founded as a Jewish state and citizenship is based on the principle of blood kinship. Given this, it is not surprising that its 1.3 million Arabs are treated as second-class citizens."

The most powerful force in the Lobby is AIPAC, the American-Israel Public affairs Committee, which Walt and Mearsheimer call "a de facto agent for a foreign government," and which they say has now forged an important alliance with evangelical Christian groups.

The bulk of the article is a detailed analysis of the way they claim the Lobby managed to change the Bush administration's policy from "halting Israel's expansionist policies in the Occupied Territories and advocating the creation of a Palestinian state" and divert it to the war on Iraq instead. They write "Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical."

"Thanks to the lobby, the United States has become the de facto enabler of Israeli expansion in the Occupied Territories, making it complicit in the crimes perpetrated against the Palestinians," and conclude that "Israel itself would probably be better off if the Lobby were less powerful and U.S. policy more even-handed."
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post #50 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-21-2006, 07:55 PM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

So two guys in the Ivory Tower think Washington is controlled by the pro-Israel lobby. Wow.

What if two guys that were "scholars" published a paper saying that all Muslims are terrorists.....wouldn't that be the same kind of thinking?

Bruce
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