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post #11 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-19-2006, 08:31 PM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

The USA is slowly reassigning and re-orienting it's military. This will likely result in the host country's feeling increasingly vulnerable and under greater pressure to develop their own military capabilities to addess the loss of the USA. This is one reason the EU is forming a military command structure independent of NATO.

I have a feeling that when the countries of the far East come to believe that they can no longer depend militarily on the USA that they will develop their own independent nuclear capability. I'll bet that S. Korea, Japan, and Taiwan could go nuclear in a matter of a couple of years, at most.


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post #12 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-19-2006, 09:08 PM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Quote:
Shabah - 3/19/2006 6:22 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 3/19/2006 5:00 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 3/19/2006 11:25 AM


American backing is often justified by the claim that Israel is a fellow‐democracy surrounded by hostile dictatorships. This rationale sounds convincing, but it cannot account for the current level of U.S. support. After all, there are many democracies around the world, but none receives the lavish support that Israel does.




That rationale doesn't just "sound" convincing, it is convincing.
How many other democracies around that world have neighbors that swear to destroy them? Or don't acknowledge their existence? Or both?
The US support of Israel is completely justified.


What about Taiwan?: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tw.html

Do they get one fifth of foreign aid too? Does the US deal with China the same way it deals with Arabs?

AIPAC use "danger to democracy" whenever it wants to make a point, example: http://www.aipac.org/hamas/
The last time I checked I though Hamas was elected but that does not count since it's an Arab election and it must be rigged...(Of course, just so you don't jump the gun, I am not a supporter of Hamas Chiphomme, but that was the will of the Palestinians)
Man, democracy does not work when it's not "your way"...
Here is what a US ex-embassador ( Robert V. Keeley, Source: http://www.jerusalemites.org/articles/english/2006/march06/5.htm ) had to say: Even worse are the Bush administration’s other reactions to the Hamas victory in the Palestinian elections, policies bordering on the farcical. Their big project of promoting democracy throughout the Middle East region received a decided boost when the Palestinians were able to hold what no one disputed was a free and fair election for a new parliament, with no violence, an honest count, and acceptance of defeat by the losers who were the incumbents. A model democratic performance.

But we had a problem: The wrong guys won! So we have scrambled to try to undo what democracy produced, thus placing hypocrisy at the forefront of our whole posture in the region.


Chiphomme, show your position, your thoughts and why should the US still be the peace broker. Can you tell me why the US should not be fired from this job?



The current US position on Taiwan is grotesque but thats a red herring.
My position on Israel is clear I support without reservations any democracy that is continually having its existence threatened.

As far as being "fired" is concerened please tell me who would be doing the "firing"? And who would broker a meaningful peace? The UN? LOL!!


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post #13 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-19-2006, 10:02 PM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Blatant force is not the answer to everything. Nor is peace the answer for same. How about some compromise? Do y'all neocons remember compromise, or that word full of such weakness in your collective minds that you ignore it without question. The world isn't that stupid ya know.
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post #14 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-19-2006, 10:32 PM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

I think it was one of the biggest mistakes in History that the UN did by giving the Arab lands back to Israel. The French and the British both promised to give back the lands to the Arabs if the Arabs help them fight Hitler.

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post #15 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-20-2006, 05:03 AM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Quote:
Shane - 3/20/2006 12:02 AM

Blatant force is not the answer to everything. Nor is peace the answer for same. How about some compromise? Do y'all neocons remember compromise, or that word full of such weakness in your collective minds that you ignore it without question. The world isn't that stupid ya know.
Compromise with military dictatorships was a path pioneered by Neville Chamberlain.
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post #16 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-20-2006, 08:32 AM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

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Botnst - 3/20/2006 6:03 AM

Quote:
Shane - 3/20/2006 12:02 AM

Blatant force is not the answer to everything. Nor is peace the answer for same. How about some compromise? Do y'all neocons remember compromise, or that word full of such weakness in your collective minds that you ignore it without question. The world isn't that stupid ya know.
Compromise with military dictatorships was a path pioneered by Neville Chamberlain.
That was obviously the wrong path for poor ol' Nev to choose now wasn't it? Look at all the leaders who reached too far and too fast and lost it all. The history books are just as full of these as Alex the Greats.
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post #17 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-20-2006, 08:45 AM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Quote:
tiggerfink - 3/20/2006 12:32 AM

I think it was one of the biggest mistakes in History that the UN did by giving the Arab lands back to Israel. The French and the British both promised to give back the lands to the Arabs if the Arabs help them fight Hitler.
Agreed. One of history's greatest blunders. I personally can't understand many folks' unconditional support of Israel. Its a democracy... big whoop. Why is this such a compelling reason? Why do we have to protect and subsidize it???

Evangelicals support it because they want to brign about the end times. Zionists support it because they're zionists. The rest of us are forced to support it because our "representative" government makes us, by spending our tax money. $500 a year I want back. What the hell? I'd like to know why this is sucha priority. Isrealis can protect themselves. Their neighbors know they'll be vaporised if they F with Israel.
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post #18 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-20-2006, 09:27 AM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Quote:
That Guy - 3/20/2006 10:45 AM

Quote:
tiggerfink - 3/20/2006 12:32 AM

I think it was one of the biggest mistakes in History that the UN did by giving the Arab lands back to Israel. The French and the British both promised to give back the lands to the Arabs if the Arabs help them fight Hitler.
Agreed. One of history's greatest blunders. I personally can't understand many folks' unconditional support of Israel. Its a democracy... big whoop. Why is this such a compelling reason? Why do we have to protect and subsidize it???

Evangelicals support it because they want to brign about the end times. Zionists support it because they're zionists. The rest of us are forced to support it because our "representative" government makes us, by spending our tax money. $500 a year I want back. What the hell? I'd like to know why this is sucha priority. Isrealis can protect themselves. Their neighbors know they'll be vaporised if they F with Israel.



If you think supporting democracies against nasty Islamic states that swear to destroy it is a "big whoop" than you're morally vacuous.


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post #19 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-20-2006, 10:29 AM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

Quote:
chiphomme - 3/20/2006 11:27 AM

If you think supporting democracies against nasty Islamic states that swear to destroy it is a "big whoop" than you're morally vacuous.

Sorry Chip. I'm a self interested realist. Thanks for the name calling.
If you want to support your favorite democracy against those "nasty islamic states" by all means feel free to move there and take up arms. Just don't freakin ask me to support you or anyone else with my tax dollars. As far as I'm concerned, we have enough of our own problems without taking up Israel's battles.

I honestly can't see what difference it would make to the United States whether Israel's around or not. I'm not saying there isn't one, I just don't see it. Any ideas?
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post #20 of 62 (permalink) Old 03-20-2006, 10:32 AM
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RE: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

US support for Israel is really a no brainer - and is more in our interests than theirs. It's stable. It's strategically located. We are welcome there. So what the fuck are we doing in Iraq?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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