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post #31 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-15-2006, 03:30 PM
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RE: So when is it?

Shabah, in the first few weeks post 9/11 Pipes was on TV a lot. The first few times I saw him he seemed like a reasonable guy and very knowledgeable about the M.E. I lost track of him for a year or so and then my younger brother sent me an op/ed that Pipes had written. I guess I read about 1/2 of it before I trashed it. I trashed it for the same reason that my brotehr sent it to me. It was an extremely well-written argument in support of Israeli intransigence concerning Palestine.

Since reading that esaay by Pipes I have read some of his longer essays and those essays changed my mind about Pipes. He is a zealot. You kno wthe type: he is so convinced of his position that he has no need of hearing another perspective. The possession of another perspective is simply wrong.

I'm guessing that other folks who have heard of Pipes have a similar reaction. I don't want to hear what he says except to check from time to time that he is indeed, still a bigoted nut. He is. I respect his right to an opinion but I do not respect his opinion.

The point being that the people who take strident poppycock like that seriously are in a minority, even in the USA. He has a right to his opinion.

The way that you introduced it you painted all Americans with a paint brush made by Pipes. No thank you.

Got it?

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post #32 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-15-2006, 05:36 PM
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RE: So when is it?

Quote:
Shabah - 3/15/2006 1:56 PM
You simply attacked with non-sense because it is from Shabah and not from someone called Joe or John. The bottom line your racist tendencies seem to take the best of you and make you discredit anything that does not seem to be inline with your realities.
Poor Shaba always the victim.
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post #33 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-15-2006, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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RE: So when is it?

Quote:
Botnst - 3/15/2006 5:30 PM

Shabah, in the first few weeks post 9/11 Pipes was on TV a lot. The first few times I saw him he seemed like a reasonable guy and very knowledgeable about the M.E. I lost track of him for a year or so and then my younger brother sent me an op/ed that Pipes had written. I guess I read about 1/2 of it before I trashed it. I trashed it for the same reason that my brotehr sent it to me. It was an extremely well-written argument in support of Israeli intransigence concerning Palestine.

Since reading that esaay by Pipes I have read some of his longer essays and those essays changed my mind about Pipes. He is a zealot. You kno wthe type: he is so convinced of his position that he has no need of hearing another perspective. The possession of another perspective is simply wrong.

I'm guessing that other folks who have heard of Pipes have a similar reaction. I don't want to hear what he says except to check from time to time that he is indeed, still a bigoted nut. He is. I respect his right to an opinion but I do not respect his opinion.

The point being that the people who take strident poppycock like that seriously are in a minority, even in the USA. He has a right to his opinion.

The way that you introduced it you painted all Americans with a paint brush made by Pipes. No thank you.

Got it?

B
You see at leat you I can talk to. You can call it when you see it except you are bit wrong about your assesment of me painting everyone with the same brush. If you read the original post you will notice that I said "followers". I am well aware that there are smart people like you who know the difference and can see bigotry when it's cloacked as patriotism.
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post #34 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-15-2006, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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RE: So when is it?

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430 - 3/15/2006 7:36 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 3/15/2006 1:56 PM
You simply attacked with non-sense because it is from Shabah and not from someone called Joe or John. The bottom line your racist tendencies seem to take the best of you and make you discredit anything that does not seem to be inline with your realities.
Poor Shaba always the victim.
No poor you, I am not a victim because I don't mind that you apply your racism towards me. This post was never about me but you in your wide wisdom you like to personalize the issue because you have no comprehension of the larger issues. That's why I think you are the looser because you are so locked up in your fantasy of grand and superior posturing.
People like you will never truly succeed because you never admit your mistakes and it’s always someone else that is the problem. You should feel sorry for your sorry ass unless you find a way to truly and constructively grow and grow up. There is time you know, I am willing to help if you can admit that you need help.
Now I wait for your next expected insult….
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post #35 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-15-2006, 06:12 PM
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RE: So when is it?

Shabah, I don't think I'm alone in the impression of being painted with Pipe's brush. I believe that is why you got that immediate negative reaction from practically everybody. I accept that it was not your intention, but nonetheless, the reaction was pretty uniform. When there's a uniform reaction by lots of people it is usually because they share a certain perception.

Well, not worth belaboring at this point.

Do you know anything about Pipes? Was he close to that nutty Knesset member, Meir Kahane (I think that was his name).

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post #36 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-15-2006, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
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RE: So when is it?

Quote:
Botnst - 3/15/2006 8:12 PM

Shabah, I don't think I'm alone in the impression of being painted with Pipe's brush. I believe that is why you got that immediate negative reaction from practically everybody. I accept that it was not your intention, but nonetheless, the reaction was pretty uniform. When there's a uniform reaction by lots of people it is usually because they share a certain perception.

Well, not worth belaboring at this point.

Do you know anything about Pipes? Was he close to that nutty Knesset member, Meir Kahane (I think that was his name).

B
I think it's a guilt thing you know[;)]
Oh yeah Kahane... I am sure that he admired him from a distance because you have to remember that Pipes is a Washington insider and the last thing he wants is a coucou around his neck. But I am sure they saw eye to eye on a lot of issues. An observation that can be made, if Pipes is such an expert on the ME and he wants to portrait a flair of credibility he could have picked on Jewish extremist organizations too in his attacks but no that's never on the table because his kind keep those assholes away from the radar beam.
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post #37 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-15-2006, 07:26 PM
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RE: So when is it?

Quote:
Shabah - 3/15/2006 8:18 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 3/15/2006 8:12 PM

Shabah, I don't think I'm alone in the impression of being painted with Pipe's brush. I believe that is why you got that immediate negative reaction from practically everybody. I accept that it was not your intention, but nonetheless, the reaction was pretty uniform. When there's a uniform reaction by lots of people it is usually because they share a certain perception.

Well, not worth belaboring at this point.

Do you know anything about Pipes? Was he close to that nutty Knesset member, Meir Kahane (I think that was his name).

B
I think it's a guilt thing you know[;)]
Oh yeah Kahane... I am sure that he admired him from a distance because you have to remember that Pipes is a Washington insider and the last thing he wants is a coucou around his neck. But I am sure they saw eye to eye on a lot of issues. An observation that can be made, if Pipes is such an expert on the ME and he wants to portrait a flair of credibility he could have picked on Jewish extremist organizations too in his attacks but no that's never on the table because his kind keep those assholes away from the radar beam.
That's such an obvious ploy but it works every time. Like Clinton v Sistah Soljah.

Concerning the Murrican psyche, I know that the overt signs of patriotism in the USA gives Europeans the vapors. They've been thrust into so many wars on their continent by people making this or that appeal to patriotism that they find patriotism dangerous if not revolting. It is not unreasonable to believe that, given their history.

What holds our militaristic patriotism in check is another thing that Europeans castigate us for: We distrust every aspect of government and in general, don't want to have a governmental system as pervasive as that which Europeans believe is their crowning achievement. We have this distrust of big government that naturally puts a check on our militaristic tendencies.

Much as I think that the opponents of the current administration are cowardly or willfully ignorant, it is also a good thing for our nation that these cowardly and willfully ignorant peasants have a loud voice that can easily gain political power and stop everything that is going on right now. I think that would be as smart as planning a train wreck to bring attention to safety problems, it is also the brake that will keep the USA from ever seeking or achieving true imperial power beyond our borders. Most of the citizens of the USA just don't want imperial power. Even the most nationalistic chauvinists we have (put your list here) don't want military imperialism. We quit doing that with Teddy Roosevelt in Panama.

That's not to say that Americans don't want to project power and influence, they do. Even the most 'liberal' want that. They will define the terminology so it doesn't sound threateningly imperialistic. They way they will couch the argument is itself a clever self-deception. It goes like this:

We need to pull our military out of these foreign adventures. It makes us hated and feared around the world and that is wrong and evil. But we cannot become isolationists, either. We have international interests that we cannot ignore and to which we can have a positive, democratic influence. Instead of military adventures in which we try to force our views on others. Rather, we will provide aid to willing 'partners' and encourage productive development.

B

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post #38 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-15-2006, 07:44 PM
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RE: So when is it?

Hey Bot, I agree, this imperialist misadministration makes ol'Teddy look like a socialist.

If you accept the premise that all religious zealots suffer from the same disease you will have no difficulty in accepting a solution that will aid in "restraining"their misplaced,hubris-ridden ardor.

What price for public safety?

Remember, the Protestant Martyrs of the 16th century were not burned for denying the Roman Catholic religion but for insulting those who did believe it,as did the Calvinists in Geneva to Catholics and Anabaptists.

In every epoch we have those who upset the social order because they think they are right and the other is wrong.
Society and Government have a duty to protect the public,generally occupied with more important matters than the dubious and unproven ones of personal salvation,from the bloody excesses of these Bi-polar zealots by any means necessary,these monomaniacal prophets of death who have no room in the attic for those that differ from them,kill'em all and you'll be doing salutary service to the gene pool.
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post #39 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-15-2006, 07:48 PM Thread Starter
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RE: So when is it?

I hear you Botnst, I would love to see an America that is geared to help secure its future. If done properly that should entail being a good neighbor, partner and friend in business and cultural exchange. Most sane Arabs have nothing against the US when that is the intention, but once your government is overrun by self interest group most bets are off. No one wins, the US citizens loose because they are no longer truly served by their government and they loose a once elevated prestige that they had with the Arabs.
As you know Botnst I have American employees and I love them to death. I mean it, I would cut my limbs and put myself in harms way for them and to protect them. They are good people just like my Pakistanis, Indians and Pilipino employees that work hard and for the most work harder than my local choices of kids out off college right here.
You see I have known them for years, I have learned from them and they have learned from me but I would say in all honesty that they offered me more and I am grateful. That’s what it is all about Botnst, growth at every level. I look for business growth of course but most importantly what counts and what I can carry with me to the grave is what I learn in the process and what I can do to help others by propagating, developing and fortifying what is learned. That is the spirit with which I see my employees regardless of nationality but I must admit that the Americans have brought me the lion share on the table. For instance just learning English to communicate with them was probably an achievement that I am proud of. Remember I did this in my late thirties so you can imagine how un-malleable my brain is at this stage of my life but I wanted to learn because I loved working with them. That’s what we want from Americans, people that are willing to help us improve and develop on a wide spectrum of skills and insights. What I am afraid of Botnst is that your administration has ruined this aspect of cultural exchange and have distanced us with a deep ravine that keeps on widening.
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post #40 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-15-2006, 08:00 PM
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RE: So when is it?

Quote:
Shabah - 3/15/2006 9:48 PM

I hear you Botnst, I would love to see an America that is geared to help secure its future. If done properly that should entail being a good neighbor, partner and friend in business and cultural exchange. Most sane Arabs have nothing against the US when that is the intention, but once your government is overrun by self interest group most bets are off. No one wins, the US citizens loose because they are no longer truly served by their government and they loose a once elevated prestige that they had with the Arabs.
As you know Botnst I have American employees and I love them to death. I mean it, I would cut my limbs and put myself in harms way for them and to protect them. They are good people just like my Pakistanis, Indians and Pilipino employees that work hard and for the most work harder than my local choices of kids out off college right here.
You see I have known them for years, I have learned from them and they have learned from me but I would say in all honesty that they offered me more and I am grateful. That’s what it is all about Botnst, growth at every level. I look for business growth of course but most importantly what counts and what I can carry with me to the grave is what I learn in the process and what I can do to help others by propagating, developing and fortifying what is learned. That is the spirit with which I see my employees regardless of nationality but I must admit that the Americans have brought me the lion share on the table. For instance just learning English to communicate with them was probably an achievement that I am proud of. Remember I did this in my late thirties so you can imagine how un-malleable my brain is at this stage of my life but I wanted to learn because I loved working with them. That’s what we want from Americans, people that are willing to help us improve and develop on a wide spectrum of skills and insights. What I am afraid of Botnst is that your administration has ruined this aspect of cultural exchange and have distanced us with a deep ravine that keeps on widening.
This administration, like every other, is transient. Their ideas and dreams are ephemeral, written on wishes with a pen of gossamer hope. The next administration will pick-up where this one left off. Whether Repo or Demo, they will hasten to jettison those things which piss-off voters and try to take credit for anything good that came of the past 8 years. That is the pattern, unbroken since our beginning.

See, it's a bloodless revolution that we plan for and engage every 4 years. Historically the president who lost power shut the fuck-up and gradually accumulated the goodwill attendant to an elder statesman. That relationship between the deposed and ascendent has resulted in a peaceful transition of power between political rivals that in other countries and other times would fill the streets and farms with blood. If we can maintain the polity this mechanism will continue into the future. But there are no guarantees for either winner or loser.

Churchill said that democracies are the worst form of government imaginable, except for all the others. I agree with that. Democracies are horribly inefficient in the best of circumstances. And in our case we have designed conflicts within the various power centers so that all of the base human emotions and ambitions are intentionally aimed to conflict between the branches. it is like designing a car NOT to run efficiently.

An efficient government is one that isn't easily dissuaded from its path. That is despotism.

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