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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-12-2006, 07:46 AM Thread Starter
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The Plan

Need I say more?

Quote:
Neocon Advocates Civil War in Iraq as "Strategic" Policy
Daniel Pipes Finds Comfort in Muslims Killing Muslims


By JOHN WALSH

One of the abiding myths about the War on Iraq is that the neocons were too stupid to realize that they would confront an unrelenting, indigenous resistance to their occupation of Iraq. Unwittingly, the story line goes, they led the U.S. into a conflict which has now produced a civil war. But this simply does not fit the facts. The neocons clearly anticipated such an outcome before they launched their war as Stephen Zunes documents in Antiwar.com:

"Top analysts in the CIA and State Department, as well as large numbers of Middle East experts, warned that a U.S. invasion of Iraq could result in a violent ethnic and sectarian conflict. Even some of the war's intellectual architects acknowledged as much: In a 1997 paper, prior to becoming major figures in the Bush foreign policy team, David Wurmser, Richard Perle, and Douglas Feith predicted that a post-Saddam Iraq would likely be "ripped apart" by sectarianism and other cleavages but called on the United States to "expedite" such a collapse anyway."

Yet the line persists that the neocons had no idea what they were getting into. This cannot be correct as they think a lot about what they do and they plan carefully. Not only is that charge absurd on the face of it, but it is arrogant on the part of those who level it. And it is the worst political mistake possible Â* underestimating your adversary.

Now the neocons are beginning to advocate for civil war in Iraq quite openly. The clearest statement of this strategy as yet comes from pre-eminent neocon and ardent Zionist Daniel Pipes. In a recent piece in the Jerusalem Post, Pipes spills the beans. He writes:

"The bombing on February 22 of the Askariya shrine in Samarra, Iraq, was a tragedy, but it was not an American or a coalition tragedy. Iraq's plight is neither a coalition responsibility nor a particular danger to the West. Fixing Iraq is neither the coalition's responsibility, nor its burden. When Sunni terrorists target Shi'ites and vice versa, non-Muslims are less likely to be hurt. Civil war in Iraq, in short, would be a humanitarian tragedy, but not a strategic one."

As ever Pipes's anti-Arab racism is simply too rabid to be hidden. If Muslims are busy killing other Muslims, then "non-Muslims" are less likely to be hurt!! What does that say about Muslim lives? And of course both Sunnis and Shia must be labeled "terrorists." Pipes is doing nothing more endorsing than the oldest of colonial strategies: Divide et impera.

Pipes envisions other "benefits" to the civil war "strategy," such as inhibiting the spread of democracy in the Middle East. Pipes again:
"Civil war will "terminate the dream of Iraq serving as a model for other Middle Eastern countries, thus delaying the push toward elections. This would have the effect of keeping Islamists from being legitimated by the popular vote, as Hamas was just a month ago."


And finally Pipes declares that a civil war "would likely invite Syrian and Iranian participation hastening the possibility of confrontation with these two states, with which tensions are already high." It is no secret that the neocons have been aching for the U.S. to strike at Iran and Syria, so here too the civil war strategy of the neocons makes good sense to them. Of course the added death and destruction is not their problem since the victims will be Muslims and some unwitting American soldiers.

There seems to be only one fly in this neocon ointment. That is, will it be possible to control the flow of oil in the midst of turmoil in Iraq. Here I suspect the neocons who put Israel first might have their differences with the oil barons, presently their allies. But the neocons have certainly given a lot of thought to that, and it probably explains why the location of the large and permanent U.S. bases in Iraq is not known. It would seem, however, that there are great uncertainties in this and it may cause some trouble among the neocons and their allies over the longer term.

The only real question is whether the civil war emerged spontaneously as Wurmser, Perle and Feith predicted or whether the Iraqis had to be goaded into it by the U.S. Given all the intrigues and mysteries in Iraq, including the bombing of the Askariya shrine in Samarra and the shadowy death squads and torture chambers which the U.S. claims to know nothing about, the latter seems more likely as of now. It certainly fits the civil war strategy, and it is quite reminiscent of the Iran-Iraq war in which the U.S. and Israel fanned the flames that consumed over 1 million Muslim lives

The fact is that the neocons who control U.S. strategy have no interest in preventing a civil war but only in inciting one. Sectarian tensions were virtually unknown in Iraq before the U.S. invasion. And in fact the Iraqi Shia fought loyally as Iraqis against Iranian Shia in the disastrous Iran-Iraq war. So to avoid an Iraqi civil war, the most important step is to get all the U.S. troops home and thus to terminate U.S. provocations. For it is now crystal clear that the neocon strategy is one of civil war to divide and destroy Iraq; and such a strategy amounts to a crime against humanity.

John Walsh can be reached at jvwalshmd@gmail.com.
Source: http://www.counterpunch.com/walsh03092006.html
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-12-2006, 08:05 AM
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RE: The Plan

Shabah, some of that seemed clear-headed. I've seen Pipes several times on TV and he is quite the unabashed Zionist. If there never was an "Elders of Zion" document, Pipes could probably write one.

Another portion (IMO the majority of it) is just plain conspiracy theory stuff. What I mean is that if we were to carefully select quotes from some movement or other we could construct from those quotes almost any scenario imaginable. In this case the author assumes That "neocons" (whatever that is) are a monolithic movement. This is absurd. One can read Krystal or Feith or Pearl or many others who are lumped into "neocon" and find all manner of similarities. OTOH, you will also find great differences. "Neocons" are only slightly more cohesive a movement than Republicans or Democrats. They are equivelent to "Environmentalists" in that regard. That is, they share some basic or fundamental philosophy but diverge on many particulars. This is especially true concerning the Iraq adventure.

What the author of the article has done is to create a monolithic vision based on Daniel Pipe's zionism. It is fun but it is also inaccurate and misleading. But then, it is an op/ed piece not a scholarly analysis.

Bot
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-12-2006, 08:34 AM
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RE: The Plan

Quote:
Botnst - 3/12/2006 10:05 AM

Shabah, some of that seemed clear-headed. I've seen Pipes several times on TV and he is quite the unabashed Zionist. If there never was an "Elders of Zion" document, Pipes could probably write one.

Another portion (IMO the majority of it) is just plain conspiracy theory stuff. What I mean is that if we were to carefully select quotes from some movement or other we could construct from those quotes almost any scenario imaginable. In this case the author assumes That "neocons" (whatever that is) are a monolithic movement. This is absurd. One can read Krystal or Feith or Pearl or many others who are lumped into "neocon" and find all manner of similarities. OTOH, you will also find great differences. "Neocons" are only slightly more cohesive a movement than Republicans or Democrats. They are equivelent to "Environmentalists" in that regard. That is, they share some basic or fundamental philosophy but diverge on many particulars. This is especially true concerning the Iraq adventure.

What the author of the article has done is to create a monolithic vision based on Daniel Pipe's zionism. It is fun but it is also inaccurate and misleading. But then, it is an op/ed piece not a scholarly analysis.

Bot


And it's an opinion piece in one of the most vile anti-American sites on the internet, Counterpunch.

If you value the opinions of people like Cockburn, Pilger,and Chomsky the site is perfect for you.
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-12-2006, 08:36 AM Thread Starter
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RE: The Plan

Bot, yes I know what is meant by neocons and sometimes it is used to unjustly accuse Jews. Not all neocons are Jews nor is it a group with clear delimiters like you mentioned.
In essence you are right, the article does border on a specific philosophy but it does bring in some very important and accurate description of what Daniel Pipes is all about including his gang. This gang of neocons are actually mostly formed from a lobbyist firm that claims to be an expert in matters related to the Middle East yet they actually always side Israel’s policies. That’s the problem. This group of people has managed to be the chief source of guidance for the current administration and they have cleverly applied their central vision of what the Middle East should be to protect Israel. Unfortunately this is not really helping Israel to attain peace, if that was the ultimate goal. This leads me to think that peace was never the real goal. This group is actually undermining real peace for the benefit of a cultural and civilization clash. They want to paint the Middle East into two camps, the bad guys and the good guys. You know what that means: superior versus inferior thus one has to go…
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-12-2006, 08:39 AM Thread Starter
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RE: The Plan

Quote:
chiphomme - 3/12/2006 10:34 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 3/12/2006 10:05 AM

Shabah, some of that seemed clear-headed. I've seen Pipes several times on TV and he is quite the unabashed Zionist. If there never was an "Elders of Zion" document, Pipes could probably write one.

Another portion (IMO the majority of it) is just plain conspiracy theory stuff. What I mean is that if we were to carefully select quotes from some movement or other we could construct from those quotes almost any scenario imaginable. In this case the author assumes That "neocons" (whatever that is) are a monolithic movement. This is absurd. One can read Krystal or Feith or Pearl or many others who are lumped into "neocon" and find all manner of similarities. OTOH, you will also find great differences. "Neocons" are only slightly more cohesive a movement than Republicans or Democrats. They are equivelent to "Environmentalists" in that regard. That is, they share some basic or fundamental philosophy but diverge on many particulars. This is especially true concerning the Iraq adventure.

What the author of the article has done is to create a monolithic vision based on Daniel Pipe's zionism. It is fun but it is also inaccurate and misleading. But then, it is an op/ed piece not a scholarly analysis.

Bot


And it's an opinion piece in one of the most vile anti-American sites on the internet, Counterpunch.

If you value the opinions of people like Cockburn, Pilger,and Chomsky the site is perfect for you.
Does that mean that they are wrong? Does the mere fact of disagreeing with the current administration or it's cronies make an author anti-American?
What do you think Chip am I anti-American?????
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-12-2006, 01:27 PM
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RE: The Plan

Quote:
Shabah - 3/12/2006 10:39 AM

Quote:
chiphomme - 3/12/2006 10:34 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 3/12/2006 10:05 AM

Shabah, some of that seemed clear-headed. I've seen Pipes several times on TV and he is quite the unabashed Zionist. If there never was an "Elders of Zion" document, Pipes could probably write one.

Another portion (IMO the majority of it) is just plain conspiracy theory stuff. What I mean is that if we were to carefully select quotes from some movement or other we could construct from those quotes almost any scenario imaginable. In this case the author assumes That "neocons" (whatever that is) are a monolithic movement. This is absurd. One can read Krystal or Feith or Pearl or many others who are lumped into "neocon" and find all manner of similarities. OTOH, you will also find great differences. "Neocons" are only slightly more cohesive a movement than Republicans or Democrats. They are equivelent to "Environmentalists" in that regard. That is, they share some basic or fundamental philosophy but diverge on many particulars. This is especially true concerning the Iraq adventure.

What the author of the article has done is to create a monolithic vision based on Daniel Pipe's zionism. It is fun but it is also inaccurate and misleading. But then, it is an op/ed piece not a scholarly analysis.

Bot


And it's an opinion piece in one of the most vile anti-American sites on the internet, Counterpunch.

If you value the opinions of people like Cockburn, Pilger,and Chomsky the site is perfect for you.
Does that mean that they are wrong? Does the mere fact of disagreeing with the current administration or it's cronies make an author anti-American?
What do you think Chip am I anti-American?????


If you gravitate toward that kind of bile you border on it.
BTW, coming from a person that creates strawmen by saying things like "go back to watching Fox News and Rush" I find it amazing you could be indignant.




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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-12-2006, 02:10 PM Thread Starter
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RE: The Plan

Quote:
chiphomme - 3/12/2006 3:27 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 3/12/2006 10:39 AM

Quote:
chiphomme - 3/12/2006 10:34 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 3/12/2006 10:05 AM

Shabah, some of that seemed clear-headed. I've seen Pipes several times on TV and he is quite the unabashed Zionist. If there never was an "Elders of Zion" document, Pipes could probably write one.

Another portion (IMO the majority of it) is just plain conspiracy theory stuff. What I mean is that if we were to carefully select quotes from some movement or other we could construct from those quotes almost any scenario imaginable. In this case the author assumes That "neocons" (whatever that is) are a monolithic movement. This is absurd. One can read Krystal or Feith or Pearl or many others who are lumped into "neocon" and find all manner of similarities. OTOH, you will also find great differences. "Neocons" are only slightly more cohesive a movement than Republicans or Democrats. They are equivelent to "Environmentalists" in that regard. That is, they share some basic or fundamental philosophy but diverge on many particulars. This is especially true concerning the Iraq adventure.

What the author of the article has done is to create a monolithic vision based on Daniel Pipe's zionism. It is fun but it is also inaccurate and misleading. But then, it is an op/ed piece not a scholarly analysis.

Bot


And it's an opinion piece in one of the most vile anti-American sites on the internet, Counterpunch.

If you value the opinions of people like Cockburn, Pilger,and Chomsky the site is perfect for you.
Does that mean that they are wrong? Does the mere fact of disagreeing with the current administration or it's cronies make an author anti-American?
What do you think Chip am I anti-American?????


If you gravitate toward that kind of bile you border on it.
BTW, coming from a person that creates strawmen by saying things like "go back to watching Fox News and Rush" I find it amazing you could be indignant.



OK, show me the bile becaue I need help understanding what I am doing wrong and is making me look so anti establishment. I want to be a goodie goodie guy Chiphomme, where do I sign up and what is it I need to say??? Teach me the way of the sage....
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-12-2006, 02:46 PM
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RE: The Plan

The most anti-American people in this world are the slimy rats who dragged us into this war - a war that was based on lies, a war that was modeled after Hitler's invasion of Poland, perpertrated by traitors to this country - men who owe their allegiance to the multi-nationalist corporations they serve, not to this country, men who criminally hijacked the 9-11 tragedy in order to attack another country for it's oil. These anti-American bastards have cost us our national honor and our place in the world as the shining light of democracy - replacing that image with our new image - that of a bunch of goosestepping advocates of military mass murder, occupiers, torturers and international liars. Real Americans are the ones who are standing up for this democracy by FIGHTING THE FASCISTS. 60% of this country has woken up to who the real enemey is - the Bushites, who would steal our future from us. Liars, war criminals, mass murderers. Be a real American. FIGHT BACK.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-12-2006, 03:04 PM
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RE: The Plan

Here's a real American, in action:

Feingold Calls for Bush's Censure Wisconsin Democrat Asks Senate to Rebuke the President for NSA Wiretaps
By ED O'KEEFE


March 12, 2006— In an exclusive interview on "This Week with George Stephanopoulos," Democratic Sen. Russ Feingold called on the Senate to publicly admonish President Bush for approving domestic wiretaps on American citizens without first seeking a legally required court order.

"This conduct is right in the strike zone of the concept of high crimes and misdemeanors," said Feingold, D-Wis., a three-term senator and potential presidential contender.

He said President Bush had, "openly and almost thumbing his nose at the American people," continued the NSA domestic wiretap program.

President Bush has long asserted that the so-called 'warrantless wiretaps' are an essential tool in the war on terror.

But in a copy of the censure resolution obtained by ABC News, Feingold asserts the president, "repeatedly misled the public prior to the public disclosure of the National Security Agency surveillance program by indicating his administration was relying on court orders to wiretap suspected terrorists inside the United States."

Feingold cites three instances over a year-long period in which Bush outlined the necessity of a court order or a judge's permission prior to a domestic wiretap of a U.S. citizen.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., also appearing exclusively on "This Week," defended Bush.

"Russ is just wrong, he is flat wrong, he is dead wrong," Frist said.

The most recent ABC News/Washington Post poll put the president's approval rating at 41 percent, nearly a career low. But that not necessarily mean Feingold's censure resolution will succeed.

Censure, essentially a public disapproval by the Senate as a whole, has only been applied to one president, Andrew Jackson, in a politically-charged move the Senate historian's office describes as "unprecedented and never-repeated tactic."


Frist called the censure attempt "political" and a "terrible, terrible signal" to enemies of the U.S. abroad. He assured Stephanopoulos that the resolution would never gain traction in the Republican-controlled Senate.

Feingold, best known for his bipartisan fight for campaign finance reform with Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., intends to introduce the resolution this week — insisting the move is not a political stunt.

"We, as a Congress, have to stand up to a president who acts like the Bill of Rights and the Constitution were repealed on Sept 11, [2001]," Feingold said.




Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-12-2006, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
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RE: The Plan

Quote:
kvining - 3/12/2006 4:46 PM

The most anti-American people in this world are the slimy rats who dragged us into this war - a war that was based on lies, a war that was modeled after Hitler's invasion of Poland, perpertrated by traitors to this country - men who owe their allegiance to the multi-nationalist corporations they serve, not to this country, men who criminally hijacked the 9-11 tragedy in order to attack another country for it's oil. These anti-American bastards have cost us our national honor and our place in the world as the shining light of democracy - replacing that image with our new image - that of a bunch of goosestepping advocates of military mass murder, occupiers, torturers and international liars. Real Americans are the ones who are standing up for this democracy by FIGHTING THE FASCISTS. 60% of this country has woken up to who the real enemey is - the Bushites, who would steal our future from us. Liars, war criminals, mass murderers. Be a real American. FIGHT BACK.
KV aren't you afraid that Chiphomme or guage might report you?
For your sake go surrender so you can get proper treatment as early as possible. The school for thought indoctrination and virtues is filling up too fast...
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