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post #41 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-09-2006, 10:39 PM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

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kvining - 3/9/2006 11:32 PM

Although I've really never had much sympathy for them, I totally wrote off the Palestinians during the Clinton negotiations where that thug Arafat turned down a deal that would have given him 97% of "Palestine" if he simply renounced the destruction of Israel. The bastard was simply representing the bastards who make up this sorry collection of human waste. But the real icing on the cake was the films of Palestinians dancing in the streets in the days after 9-11. I hope they rot in hell. It's proof of the utter fantasy that the Bushites live in when they claim that "democracy" will solve the problems of the Middle East - as long as there is no comprehensive solution to the historical problems faced by the Arab people coupled, with their acceptance of Israel as a legitamate state and their move away from religious fundamentalism, there will simply be no peace in this land no matter what type of government they have. The Turks have the only workable model - a Constitution that states that Fundamentalism must be totally kept out of politics, and a secular army to enforce the provison. It's the only way a democracy can function in a Muslim country. Otherwise, the scum will rise to the top - religious parties make true democracy impossible, because they simply want to be elected so they can torpedo democracy. We are witnessing it now in Iraq. We need to treat all Middle Eastern regimes as pariahs until they come together and renounce their ways. Otherwise, they should treat them all as potential enemies.
A small number of Palestinians apparently did celebrate... between 5 and 16, depending on whose report you believe. I don't find it that hard to understand: for one thing, at the time they had no way of knowing the enormity of the situation, all they knew is that for once, their enemy had been hit back at its heart. That hadn't happened before. Of course, the few seconds' worth of footage (not "films") was broadcast immediately in the U.S., and then repeated over and over until most Americans, like you, believe all of Palestine was celebrating. Nothing could be further from the truth. Once the horror of the situation became clear, many Palestinians actually rushed to give blood. Did you?

But if the image of a few miscreants is so compelling, then what was your reaction to the Israelis celebrating, filming and giving each other "high-five" salutes, right in front of the catastrophe itself? And these weren't miscreants, or peasants, they were officials. "Their lawyers and the [Israeli] embassy say their ghoulish and sinister celebrations as the Twin Towers blazed and thousands died were due to youthful foolishness." See http://www.sundayherald.com/37707

Of course, Israeli spies have always operated within the borders of the United States with impunity. Once in awhile, one is apprehended for activities so egregious that action must be taken (usually because some of the relevant material has become public). One prominent example: do you know the type of American military secrets that Jonathan Pollard transmitted back to Israel? Do you know their implications for (American) national security? Do you know why he remains in prison, even though the Israeli government finally admitted official responsibility for his acts, after years of denial?

I will leave the rest of your blame-the-victim screed for some other time. But note for now that your version of Arafat and Clinton is also, to put it kindly, inaccurate.

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post #42 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-09-2006, 10:46 PM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

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brucemendel - 3/9/2006 10:19 PM

"Believe me, no Arab country poses a threat to Israel."

C'mon now. We can argue both sides eloquently, but that statement is pretty far out there. Let's at least stick to basic truths, and one basic truth is that many Arab countries would LOVE to see Israel disappear. I am sure Israel feels the same way about some Arab countries, but you won't see me saying that Israel does not harbor any ill will towards them!
But that was not her point, her point was that none of them poses a threat, and I think it's certainly arguable. For any nation to attack Israel would be certain suicide, and more to the point, no nation in the region has anything resembling the might of Israel's military machine.

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As far as not letting go of the past, that is EXACTLY why this can not be solved. If you are willing to go back to before (accurately) recorded history as justification for righting a wrong, or proof that the "other side" started it, the entire situation is DOA. Wiping the slate and starting from zero is the only way it will get done.
You may be right, but for better or worse, this mentality rewards only those who have had the privilege of rearranging 'facts on the ground' for the last several decades. So it's not too hard to understand why the people being 'rearranged' might object.


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post #43 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2006, 09:29 AM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

~~~ But that was not her point, her point was that none of them poses a threat, and I think it's certainly arguable. For any nation to attack Israel would be certain suicide, and more to the point, no nation in the region has anything resembling the might of Israel's military machine. ~~~

I guess we can argue anything. But those countries opposed to the existence of Israel, or actively trying to bring about the destruction of Israel, ARE a threat. Maybe not a nuclear threat, maybe just a "lob a few mortars across the border" threat, but still a threat. And the moment they feel they have the means to make a serious attempt, in Israel's percetion they will do just that, since they have already clearly communicated their intent, and now it's just a question of time, money, and resources.

It's suicide for people to attack Israel too, but they seem to be doing that in pretty large numbers. With enough religious "juice", why wouldn't an entire population or segment of the population go for it as well?

Bruce
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post #44 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2006, 10:06 AM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

Again, I gave a solution earlier for this problem but there seem to be no traction for it because it's too bold and it will require some countries to put out or shut up (mainly the US).
Here is the concept again:
All Arab countries surrounding Israel including Israel will have to disarm. That is all heavy weapons including war planes, missles, nuclear, chemical etc will have to be destroyed, sold or handed over. The US then with its "mighty" forces will install itself in startegic border crossings, monitor communications, fly over whatever it needs to do to make sure that no one is about to invade the other. All "free" monies to Israel and other Arab countries should be cut off since the US will be spending those funds on itself to stregthen its military and give job to its own citizens to build up the infrastructure to implement this plan. Since the US claims to be the peace broker then it should step in and do this instead of letting those children take care of themselves while constantly fighting then asking for money.
If this plan goes through, now we will see who will be standing up on their own through true business investments to make their countries strong rather than sending their youths to war.

Any courage out there??????????????????????????????
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post #45 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2006, 10:20 AM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

Sounds good to me. Then Israel and all the countries surrounding her have to acknowledge each other's right to exist within defined and secure borders, and renounce violence against each other.

Once all that is done, and we're in the middle, Israel should then have to disarm too....fair is fair.

Bruce
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post #46 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2006, 10:33 AM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

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brucemendel - 3/10/2006 12:20 PM

Sounds good to me. Then Israel and all the countries surrounding her have to acknowledge each other's right to exist within defined and secure borders, and renounce violence against each other.

Once all that is done, and we're in the middle, Israel should then have to disarm too....fair is fair.

Bruce
You got it!
Each can keep a militia or some light army to keep order within their borders and that would be the extent of it. The US, the UN or even Russia can join in and make sure that the balance and peace are maintained.
Egypt will have to give parts of Sinai for some major coalition bases, Jordan, Lebanon the same and Syria will have to sacrifice the Golan Heights so the coalition will take over it.
Israel will have the right to exist and will be able to have trade with the others. Anyone breaking compliance will be sujected to heavy fines drawn directly from a trust fund that all put money ito it to partially pay for this plan.
Over time this program can be fully funded by the Arabs and Israelis and the US can eventually pull back when these people have no other incentives to kill each other.
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post #47 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2006, 11:53 AM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

The other thing that needs to be addressed is the educational system of both cultures, especially Palestinian/Arab where they are taught Israelis and Jews, by extension, are natural enemies.

Seems silly to have the adults make peace and the kids go kill each other when they get a bit older.

Bruce
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post #48 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-10-2006, 10:35 PM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

I would choose to ignore the insults against the Palestinian people that some of you used in their posts. I'm a Palestinian by the way. I would only like to point that using foul language doesn't help clarifying a point.

For those of you who are not convinced that Arab regimes do not pose a threat to Israel, I'd remind you of two tiny little incidents,
* the 1981 Israeli bombing of an under-construction Iraqi nuclear reactor. Note that Iraq didn't retaliate and that those planes flew over another Arab country to reach Iraq and then back to go home.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/7/newsid_3014000/3014623.stm
* the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
Mind you, there was no Hamas at the time.

One piece of advice.. you can ocassionally read what Marsden writes not Israeli propaganda all the time.
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