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post #21 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-08-2006, 05:56 PM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

That's exactly right. Each side has more evidence than they will ever need to prove they are right. Each has plenty of evidence that they are only retaliating for what the other side did most recently.

Each side can show proof that the other started it. Each can show that the other targets civilians, and imposes terror by their respective actions.

Until each side wipes out the past, starts from zero no longer attacking each other, and creates a workable solution where each can live side by side with secure borders, it will never be done.

The Palestinians have a right to not be treated like second-class citizens, to have a land to call their own, and to create their own destiny without being raised in ghettos. The world gave that opportunity to the Israelis when it created Israel, why is it any different for the Palestinians today? The Israelis, in my opinion, would leave everyone alone if they were left alone (but they still need to make room for the Palestinians).

The problem I see is that Israel can't make peace, give up land, and have the country divided or partially turned over, because they believe that many of the other neighboring Arab states will use that opportunity to get weapons closer and attack anyway. I mean, it's pretty hard to say Iran is not a threat to Israel; Iran is huge backer of the Palestinian cause, and the Palestinians fund some of their military efforts from Iran. Would you feel comfortable with a state next to you that hates you for what you;'ve done to them for decades, and is buddies with a state that wants to "wipe you off the map"?

If the other Arab nations renounced their position towards wanting to destroy Israel, and put all their efforts into getting the Palestinians a homeland, and Israel felt they could do that without getting wiped out as a result, I bet they'd go for it.

The old saying about "If the Arabs disarmed, there would be peace in the middle east, but if Israel disarms, there would be no Israel" is an exaggeration, but that perception is certainly held by the Israelis. Until they feel like giving up what the Palestinians want/need is not suicide, they won't do it.

It's still a win/lose in everyone's minds on both sides, and until someone creates a solution that's a win/win, it can't be done.

Bruce
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post #22 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-09-2006, 01:15 PM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

Lets see if I've got this correct:

You set a mortar tube up in a school yard and launch several rounds into your enemies residential areas, possibly killing innocent women and children. Your enemy immediately locates your launch site and in self-defense returns fire, thereby possibly killing you and innocent women and children nearby.

You now tell your own people and the world of your unnecessary suffering and that your enemy deserves to be wiped off the face of the earth.

And you expect my sympathy and understanding?
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post #23 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-09-2006, 01:17 PM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

Lets see if I've got this correct:

You set a mortar tube up in a school yard and launch several rounds into your enemies residential areas, possibly killing innocent women and children. Your enemy immediately locates your launch site and in self-defense returns fire, thereby possibly killing you and innocent women and children nearby.

You now tell your own people and the world of your unnecessary suffering and that your enemy deserves to be wiped off the face of the earth.

And you expect my sympathy and understanding?
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post #24 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-09-2006, 01:18 PM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

sorry for double post, server still acting up.
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post #25 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-09-2006, 01:54 PM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

Quote:
felkhound - 3/8/2006 8:17 PM

Lets see if I've got this correct:

You set a mortar tube up in a school yard and launch several rounds into your enemies residential areas, possibly killing innocent women and children. Your enemy immediately locates your launch site and in self-defense returns fire, thereby possibly killing you and innocent women and children nearby.

You now tell your own people and the world of your unnecessary suffering and that your enemy deserves to be wiped off the face of the earth.

And you expect my sympathy and understanding?

Yes, but the mortar tube in the school yard was a response to the bombing of a civilian Palestinian hospital in which many innocent women and children were killed.

No, their enemies, the Israeli's dont deserve to be wiped off the face of the earth. But if the insist on bombing innocent children then they will be.

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post #26 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-09-2006, 02:15 PM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

Quote:
brucemendel - 3/8/2006 7:56 PM

That's exactly right. Each side has more evidence than they will ever need to prove they are right. Each has plenty of evidence that they are only retaliating for what the other side did most recently.

Each side can show proof that the other started it. Each can show that the other targets civilians, and imposes terror by their respective actions.

Until each side wipes out the past, starts from zero no longer attacking each other, and creates a workable solution where each can live side by side with secure borders, it will never be done.

The Palestinians have a right to not be treated like second-class citizens, to have a land to call their own, and to create their own destiny without being raised in ghettos. The world gave that opportunity to the Israelis when it created Israel, why is it any different for the Palestinians today? The Israelis, in my opinion, would leave everyone alone if they were left alone (but they still need to make room for the Palestinians).

The problem I see is that Israel can't make peace, give up land, and have the country divided or partially turned over, because they believe that many of the other neighboring Arab states will use that opportunity to get weapons closer and attack anyway. I mean, it's pretty hard to say Iran is not a threat to Israel; Iran is huge backer of the Palestinian cause, and the Palestinians fund some of their military efforts from Iran. Would you feel comfortable with a state next to you that hates you for what you;'ve done to them for decades, and is buddies with a state that wants to "wipe you off the map"?

If the other Arab nations renounced their position towards wanting to destroy Israel, and put all their efforts into getting the Palestinians a homeland, and Israel felt they could do that without getting wiped out as a result, I bet they'd go for it.

The old saying about "If the Arabs disarmed, there would be peace in the middle east, but if Israel disarms, there would be no Israel" is an exaggeration, but that perception is certainly held by the Israelis. Until they feel like giving up what the Palestinians want/need is not suicide, they won't do it.

It's still a win/lose in everyone's minds on both sides, and until someone creates a solution that's a win/win, it can't be done.

Bruce
Excellent points Bruce, but they both need to disarm... If the US is such a "friend" then they should step in and make sure that Israel and the Palestinians are protected militarily. No one has the courage to do this, no one!
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post #27 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-09-2006, 02:41 PM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

The Hamas is not creating a surprise by showing some disarming signs of peacefull will.
No not at all. This is very disturbing to many.

See now how stoical the Israeli establishment remains since the election.

What happens when Hamas runs out of money ?

I'm throwing the dices :

What happens when Hamas runs out of money AND Iran threatens to cut short of oil supplies.

Ho wait : What happens when Hamas runs out of money AND Iran threatens to cut short of oil supplies AND Israel gets bored once more.
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post #28 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-09-2006, 02:50 PM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

GermanStar,

I'll give you a brief look at how Arabs catagories themselves into 3 major groups: Bedouin, peasants/farmers and city/town people. Each group takes pride in its ancestry and lifestyle but nobody treats others as 'second class citizens'. Only governments do.

Palestine is Palestine. Jordan is Jordan. It's Israel's greatest regret that they didn't help Palestinians in 1970 to take over Jordan (Thank God they didn't.. We want our land not to steal someone else's). With the help of the US, they would've installed the regime of their choice there and lived peacefully until they carefully planned their next invasion.


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post #29 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-09-2006, 02:53 PM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

Quote:
felkhound - 3/10/2006 11:15 PM

Lets see if I've got this correct:

You set a mortar tube up in a school yard and launch several rounds into your enemies residential areas, possibly killing innocent women and children. Your enemy immediately locates your launch site and in self-defense returns fire, thereby possibly killing you and innocent women and children nearby.

You now tell your own people and the world of your unnecessary suffering and that your enemy deserves to be wiped off the face of the earth.

And you expect my sympathy and understanding?
No, you haven't. They bomb our refugee camps into rubble with state-of-the-art fighter jets killing dozens, we blow ourselves up in retaliation hoping to kill a few. They took our land, built themselves homes on it yet don't want us to live even in miserable refugee camps. They have nuclear weapons, we have the right to live. Got it now?




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post #30 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-09-2006, 02:58 PM
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RE: Hamas launches new website

Quote:
Shabah - 3/10/2006 12:15 AM

Quote:
brucemendel - 3/8/2006 7:56 PM

That's exactly right. Each side has more evidence than they will ever need to prove they are right. Each has plenty of evidence that they are only retaliating for what the other side did most recently.

Each side can show proof that the other started it. Each can show that the other targets civilians, and imposes terror by their respective actions.

Until each side wipes out the past, starts from zero no longer attacking each other, and creates a workable solution where each can live side by side with secure borders, it will never be done.

The Palestinians have a right to not be treated like second-class citizens, to have a land to call their own, and to create their own destiny without being raised in ghettos. The world gave that opportunity to the Israelis when it created Israel, why is it any different for the Palestinians today? The Israelis, in my opinion, would leave everyone alone if they were left alone (but they still need to make room for the Palestinians).

The problem I see is that Israel can't make peace, give up land, and have the country divided or partially turned over, because they believe that many of the other neighboring Arab states will use that opportunity to get weapons closer and attack anyway. I mean, it's pretty hard to say Iran is not a threat to Israel; Iran is huge backer of the Palestinian cause, and the Palestinians fund some of their military efforts from Iran. Would you feel comfortable with a state next to you that hates you for what you;'ve done to them for decades, and is buddies with a state that wants to "wipe you off the map"?

If the other Arab nations renounced their position towards wanting to destroy Israel, and put all their efforts into getting the Palestinians a homeland, and Israel felt they could do that without getting wiped out as a result, I bet they'd go for it.

The old saying about "If the Arabs disarmed, there would be peace in the middle east, but if Israel disarms, there would be no Israel" is an exaggeration, but that perception is certainly held by the Israelis. Until they feel like giving up what the Palestinians want/need is not suicide, they won't do it.

It's still a win/lose in everyone's minds on both sides, and until someone creates a solution that's a win/win, it can't be done.

Bruce
Excellent points Bruce, but they both need to disarm... If the US is such a "friend" then they should step in and make sure that Israel and the Palestinians are protected militarily. No one has the courage to do this, no one!

That'll enforce peace but will justice prevail? Will each and every Palestinian regain possession of his house/farm/property?
No, not in our wildest dreams.



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