Guilt Dogma in Action - Page 2 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-24-2006, 03:58 PM
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RE: Guilt Dogma in Action

Quote:
Shabah - 2/24/2006 5:40 PM

Quote:
jjl - 2/24/2006 1:15 PM

Freedom of Speech should NOT have limits, Shabah. In the case you cite, Livingstone is a public official, and while he is free to say whatever he likes, he can be called to account for it later by those who assess his performance in office - as the piece you quote shows. For individuals who feel they have been maliciously damaged by anothers speech or writing there can be consequences e.g. legal redress through the libel and slander laws.

This is a very important issue. One of the major reasons for problems in your part of the world is precisely this lack of freedom that, ironically, you want to limit. Who gets to decide what can and cannot be said? You? Me? Priests? Mullahs? How would you like to be hunted down and punished by the state for any of the opinions you give on this forum?
jjl, I understand that he is a public official and that he should have kept his yap under control for professionalism sake. The problem is that if he had called an Arab a dirty camel this would not have spun to a point where his legal costs climbed to eighty bricks and gets booted for a few days to teach him a lesson. Let's face it, this article just shows the double standard that's used to judge behaviour based on who gets offended and how much power they yield. That's the point.
Bullshit. This is the kind of half truth spinning of issues that piss me off.

The individual below did not have to cough up 80k in legal fees or take a 4 week suspension. He was fired from a highly rated TV show he has hosted for 17 years. Costing him much more than $80k.

Popular BBC Host Loses Job For Racist Comments
by Global News Digest
January 28, 2004

He was known as "Mr. Slik" and, in reference to his earlier career as an MP, described as "once the golden boy of politics." British media agrees that he is a smooth operator and they attribute his endurance at the top of British talk-show ratings to his ability to "schmooze a studio audience into revealing their innermost secrets."

Now, like his political career, Robert Kilroy-Silk's long reign at the head of the most highly rated BBC daytime talk-show program has come to an end.

Following weeks of agonizing deliberations, Mr. Kilroy-Silk was forced to step down as host of daytime talk show, Kilroy! - the highly rated British Broadcasting Corporation program he has hosted for the past 17 years on BBC1 television.

Kilroy-Silk was fired for an article he wrote as a freelance newspaper columnist; not for a BBC-owned publication, but for the Weekly Sunday Express. The article first appeared in the Sunday Express just after the war in Iraq in April last year. That first appearance caused hardly a ripple, but a January 4th reprint of the same story by the same paper started an avalanche of controversy that has put a serious dent on and may yet destroy Kilroy-Silks public career.

The offending newspaper article, an anti Arab diatribe -- the kind of propaganda piece one may expect to be aimed at a safe homogeneous audience in defense of a war effort -- was titled "We Owe the Arabs Nothing." It began: "We are told by some of the more hysterical critics of the war on terror that ’it is destroying the Arab world’. So? Should we be worried about that?"

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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-24-2006, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Guilt Dogma in Action

Quote:
430 - 2/24/2006 5:58 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 2/24/2006 5:40 PM

Quote:
jjl - 2/24/2006 1:15 PM

Freedom of Speech should NOT have limits, Shabah. In the case you cite, Livingstone is a public official, and while he is free to say whatever he likes, he can be called to account for it later by those who assess his performance in office - as the piece you quote shows. For individuals who feel they have been maliciously damaged by anothers speech or writing there can be consequences e.g. legal redress through the libel and slander laws.

This is a very important issue. One of the major reasons for problems in your part of the world is precisely this lack of freedom that, ironically, you want to limit. Who gets to decide what can and cannot be said? You? Me? Priests? Mullahs? How would you like to be hunted down and punished by the state for any of the opinions you give on this forum?
jjl, I understand that he is a public official and that he should have kept his yap under control for professionalism sake. The problem is that if he had called an Arab a dirty camel this would not have spun to a point where his legal costs climbed to eighty bricks and gets booted for a few days to teach him a lesson. Let's face it, this article just shows the double standard that's used to judge behaviour based on who gets offended and how much power they yield. That's the point.
Bullshit. This is the kind of half truth spinning of issues that piss me off.

The individual below did not have to cough up 80k in legal fees or take a 4 week suspension. He was fired from a highly rated TV show he has hosted for 17 years. Costing him much more than $80k.

Popular BBC Host Loses Job For Racist Comments
by Global News Digest
January 28, 2004

He was known as "Mr. Slik" and, in reference to his earlier career as an MP, described as "once the golden boy of politics." British media agrees that he is a smooth operator and they attribute his endurance at the top of British talk-show ratings to his ability to "schmooze a studio audience into revealing their innermost secrets."

Now, like his political career, Robert Kilroy-Silk's long reign at the head of the most highly rated BBC daytime talk-show program has come to an end.

Following weeks of agonizing deliberations, Mr. Kilroy-Silk was forced to step down as host of daytime talk show, Kilroy! - the highly rated British Broadcasting Corporation program he has hosted for the past 17 years on BBC1 television.

Kilroy-Silk was fired for an article he wrote as a freelance newspaper columnist; not for a BBC-owned publication, but for the Weekly Sunday Express. The article first appeared in the Sunday Express just after the war in Iraq in April last year. That first appearance caused hardly a ripple, but a January 4th reprint of the same story by the same paper started an avalanche of controversy that has put a serious dent on and may yet destroy Kilroy-Silks public career.

The offending newspaper article, an anti Arab diatribe -- the kind of propaganda piece one may expect to be aimed at a safe homogeneous audience in defense of a war effort -- was titled "We Owe the Arabs Nothing." It began: "We are told by some of the more hysterical critics of the war on terror that ’it is destroying the Arab world’. So? Should we be worried about that?"
I did not understand the correlation you put forth here, maybe my low IQ is catching up to me but can you help me understand your post reply?
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-24-2006, 04:04 PM
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RE: Guilt Dogma in Action

Quote:
Shabah - 2/25/2006 10:40 PM

Quote:
jjl - 2/24/2006 1:15 PM

Freedom of Speech should NOT have limits, Shabah. In the case you cite, Livingstone is a public official, and while he is free to say whatever he likes, he can be called to account for it later by those who assess his performance in office - as the piece you quote shows. For individuals who feel they have been maliciously damaged by anothers speech or writing there can be consequences e.g. legal redress through the libel and slander laws.

This is a very important issue. One of the major reasons for problems in your part of the world is precisely this lack of freedom that, ironically, you want to limit. Who gets to decide what can and cannot be said? You? Me? Priests? Mullahs? How would you like to be hunted down and punished by the state for any of the opinions you give on this forum?
jjl, I understand that he is a public official and that he should have kept his yap under control for professionalism sake. The problem is that if he had called an Arab a dirty camel this would not have spun to a point where his legal costs climbed to eighty bricks and gets booted for a few days to teach him a lesson. Let's face it, this article just shows the double standard that's used to judge behaviour based on who gets offended and how much power they yield. That's the point.
I don't think it does, Shabah. In fact, had he made such a racist remark about Arabs I think it highly likely he would have been pressured to resign, and rightly so. IMO he should have been given the boot even for his goading of the jewish journalist with 'concentration camp' remarks. The problem for 'Red Ken', as he is called by the popular press in Britain, is that has a lot of time for so-called 'scholars' such as Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, a man who supports the suicide bombing of civilians, execution of homosexuals, the subjugation of the Jews, and the punishment of rape victims who do not dress modestly. This is the logical endpoint of insane European multiculturalism - giving fascists a platform because fascists are a minority and all minorities are 'oppressed'.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-24-2006, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Guilt Dogma in Action

Quote:
jjl - 2/24/2006 6:04 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 2/25/2006 10:40 PM

Quote:
jjl - 2/24/2006 1:15 PM

Freedom of Speech should NOT have limits, Shabah. In the case you cite, Livingstone is a public official, and while he is free to say whatever he likes, he can be called to account for it later by those who assess his performance in office - as the piece you quote shows. For individuals who feel they have been maliciously damaged by anothers speech or writing there can be consequences e.g. legal redress through the libel and slander laws.

This is a very important issue. One of the major reasons for problems in your part of the world is precisely this lack of freedom that, ironically, you want to limit. Who gets to decide what can and cannot be said? You? Me? Priests? Mullahs? How would you like to be hunted down and punished by the state for any of the opinions you give on this forum?
jjl, I understand that he is a public official and that he should have kept his yap under control for professionalism sake. The problem is that if he had called an Arab a dirty camel this would not have spun to a point where his legal costs climbed to eighty bricks and gets booted for a few days to teach him a lesson. Let's face it, this article just shows the double standard that's used to judge behaviour based on who gets offended and how much power they yield. That's the point.
I don't think it does, Shabah. In fact, had he made such a racist remark about Arabs I think it highly likely he would have been pressured to resign, and rightly so. IMO he should have been given the boot even for his goading of the jewish journalist with 'concentration camp' remarks. The problem for 'Red Ken', as he is called by the popular press in Britain, is that has a lot of time for so-called 'scholars' such as Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, a man who supports the suicide bombing of civilians, execution of homosexuals, the subjugation of the Jews, and the punishment of rape victims who do not dress modestly. This is the logical endpoint of insane European multiculturalism - giving fascists a platform because fascists are a minority and all minorities are 'oppressed'.
If he is like you describe I am all for tarring and feathering him and kicking him out off town but it's not his association and views that are the primary reason for this punishment. What got him in hot water is that he messed with the "wrong" people.
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-24-2006, 04:18 PM
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RE: Guilt Dogma in Action

Another thing to think about is this: Government officials have less freedom of speech than ordinary citizens. People tend to take government officials seriously, that's why we call them, "official."

Thus, if a gov bureaucrat talks about Jews eating baby Muslims as part of secret satanic rituals (or the reverse), that gives a certain imprimateur to that wacky kind of thinking. That simply cannot be allowed to go unchecked in a liberal society--those mouthy bastards work for us and we must keep a foot on their necks or they will become our masters.

What is the remedy? I guess that depends on the nation. In the USA at every level of government and in every region o fthe country the response will vary. In one place it maybe nothing. In another it may result in a recall petition or court action. Whatever the English decide to do is an English problem with an English solution--until the EU teaches them how to be proper Continentals.
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