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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-24-2006, 09:26 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Iran and North Korea

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Botnst - 2/23/2006 6:31 PM

What emboldened Iran was Russia's refusal to recognize a problem with Russia's support of the Iranian nuke program. By loyally blocking any movement against Iran in the security Council, Russia demonstrated the fecklessness and and cowardice of the UN Security Council.

North Korea was tremendously emboldened by the extremely foolish agreement of the Clinton Administration to let Jimmy Carter, a proven failure at international relations, to negotiate with N Korea, a country with a 60 year record of being caught in lies and maladroit violent interventions from Singapore to S Korea. The result was that N Korea recognized that the USA was insouciant and willing to be duped with gentle lies and sweet promises.

Remember what Reagan said, "Trust but verify." With N Korea we neither trusted them nor did we verify their behavior.

B
I don't doubt the veracity of your arguments, but do you think it's just coincidence that these issues seem to be coming to a serious head while we're blundering about Iraq? Before Iraq, we were the only global superpower, and frankly, our actual ability to impose/enforce our will was based somewhat on mythical proportions of that power. Now that our limitations in that arena have been exposed, upstarts are rearing their ugly heads to no good end. I've often said that nothing that's happened in Iraq to date has been a surprise. It's all come down in a predictable manner, but I'll admit that I didn't envision global repercussions of empowering N. Korea and Iran. I hope you're right -- I hope it's just coincidence.

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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-24-2006, 03:54 PM
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RE: Iran and North Korea

Quote:
GermanStar - 2/24/2006 11:26 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 2/23/2006 6:31 PM

What emboldened Iran was Russia's refusal to recognize a problem with Russia's support of the Iranian nuke program. By loyally blocking any movement against Iran in the security Council, Russia demonstrated the fecklessness and and cowardice of the UN Security Council.

North Korea was tremendously emboldened by the extremely foolish agreement of the Clinton Administration to let Jimmy Carter, a proven failure at international relations, to negotiate with N Korea, a country with a 60 year record of being caught in lies and maladroit violent interventions from Singapore to S Korea. The result was that N Korea recognized that the USA was insouciant and willing to be duped with gentle lies and sweet promises.

Remember what Reagan said, "Trust but verify." With N Korea we neither trusted them nor did we verify their behavior.

B
I don't doubt the veracity of your arguments, but do you think it's just coincidence that these issues seem to be coming to a serious head while we're blundering about Iraq? Before Iraq, we were the only global superpower, and frankly, our actual ability to impose/enforce our will was based somewhat on mythical proportions of that power. Now that our limitations in that arena have been exposed, upstarts are rearing their ugly heads to no good end. I've often said that nothing that's happened in Iraq to date has been a surprise. It's all come down in a predictable manner, but I'll admit that I didn't envision global repercussions of empowering N. Korea and Iran. I hope you're right -- I hope it's just coincidence.
Everybody on the planet who has a screw loose is probably looking for an opportunity to sneak something by us that would ordinarily attract clandestine or military notice. Iran and NK would be stupid not to, if they believe thwarting the USA is in their longterm self interest.

But this is certainly not a new phenomenon. It went on before Former Pres Carter gave NK everything they wanted. It went on after Pres Carter gave Iran everything they wanted. Hmmm, there's a pattern here.

Bot
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-24-2006, 07:03 PM
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RE: Iran and North Korea

North Korea is a Stalinist basket case that will collapse internally before it's nuclear dreams are ever realized.

Iran is and has been a tremendous threat to the US for decades. The greatest tragedy of Iraq is that Bush single handedly lost the propaganda war skillfully waged by Clinton that was winning over the young generations of Iranians who would have cast off the Mullahs given a chance. Instead, Bush's Hitler-style agression has caused the entire Iranian population to fear us and to support the whack-job mullah's desire to build atomic weapons so they can hasten the return of the Sultan Ali.

One of the shortcomings of Bush's supporters has been their total inabilty to understand Shiitism - unlike Sunnism, it is an Apocalyptic sect. The Mullahs are also utterly obsessed with magical beings, demons and devils. People who are not Shiites, are that way because a demon possesses them. Shiites should simply not have nuclear weapons. Events in Iraq has caused Bush to have to ally to the Shiites, which may soon be recognized as the worst mistake this country ever made. They now know our tactics, our weapons and have had every opportunity to infiltrate our armed forces, something I am sure the Russians, another group Clinton was doing well with whom Bush proceeded to shit all over, have helped them with.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 12:04 AM
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RE: Iran and North Korea

Quote:
kvining - 2/24/2006 9:03 PM

North Korea is a Stalinist basket case that will collapse internally before it's nuclear dreams are ever realized.
Why hasn't it happened yet? If mass starvation doesn't accomplish the collapse, what's it going to take? Should the West stop sending food aid?

BTW, North Korea had U.N. inspectors in place until 2003. Then it restarted plutonium production, which it had ceased since the Clinton agreement, and withdrew from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. These developments may clearly be laid at the doorstep of the present Administration, although a few Bush fanatics will tell you otherwise.

By September 2004, North Korea declared that it had converted 8,000 spent nuclear fuel rods into weapons. Since then, they have been hard at work on long-range delivery systems, having already tested medium-range missiles. North Korea is also believed to possess a substantial arsenal of chemical weapons.

Of course, Kim Jong Il (unlike Saddam Hussein, for instance) also threatened the United States directly and repeatedly. Many observers have claimed that the Bush Administration's fixation (and then warfare) upon Iraq gave Kim the freedom to ramp up his nuclear plans.

If you're interested, Selig Harrison wrote a fairly sympathetic review of the Bush Administration's handling of North Korea's spiral into nuclear arms production which you can read here

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20050101faessay84109-p0/selig-s-harrison/did-north-korea-cheat.html


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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 01:41 AM
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RE: Iran and North Korea

We should just preemptive nuclear strike against NK, fire a trident missile and hit 24 of their major citys and military bases... One should kill good 'ol Kim Jong Il ... That would also weaken their military strength... Then we can just let the SK Army walk in and take over... The few hundred thousand dead would actuly save millions in the future... Make a bit of NK a self lighting glass floored parking lot... Problem solved...

Iran??? Same thing.. Nuke em too... The ammount of dead will not excede the ammount saved from their extreamisum...


Iraq, Start a major ID run, anyone that doesn't live there or work there.. Or have reasons to be exempt (at a legal border) give these people 3 weeks to get their ducks in a row... Then if they don't have the proper ID, shoot them. Also to save troops from road side bombs, send Strikers on patrol insted of Humvee's Since strikers are more heavly armored than Humvee's... Hell a 113A3 and 577A3's are more heavly armored than Humvee's


Rich

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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 10:51 AM
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RE: Iran and North Korea

Quote:
TheRazz - 2/25/2006 3:41 AM

We should just preemptive nuclear strike against NK, fire a trident missile and hit 24 of their major citys and military bases... One should kill good 'ol Kim Jong Il ... That would also weaken their military strength... Then we can just let the SK Army walk in and take over... The few hundred thousand dead would actuly save millions in the future... Make a bit of NK a self lighting glass floored parking lot... Problem solved...

Iran??? Same thing.. Nuke em too... The ammount of dead will not excede the ammount saved from their extreamisum...


Iraq, Start a major ID run, anyone that doesn't live there or work there.. Or have reasons to be exempt (at a legal border) give these people 3 weeks to get their ducks in a row... Then if they don't have the proper ID, shoot them. Also to save troops from road side bombs, send Strikers on patrol insted of Humvee's Since strikers are more heavly armored than Humvee's... Hell a 113A3 and 577A3's are more heavly armored than Humvee's


Rich
Have you ever asked yourself why you can't hold a job?
With your logic I can see why some of your employers might have felt under some sort of attack. I am guessing you go for the throat before someone holds your wrist to show you how to do something...
Unfortunatly I have a feeling that you are not alone as your educational system and your parents' parenting skills have failed you just like many millions in your country. You see everything from your angle as the "just cause" while everyone else is up to no good. You have been taught false pride by feeling good at the expenses of others. Murdering a bunch of Ayrabs or Koreans is ok as long as it gets your message through because you can't talk to "them ignorants people" can you? You don't even know how to approach them so what do you do? you nuke the shit out off them maybe something good will come out of it huh?
TheRazz, you keep telling us how good you will be with your fantasy business but I bet ya if I laid out a 100G in front of you you will frikin blow it on beer an shit... I am sure that I all I will get out of you are a bunch of sorry ass excuses why things are not going the way they should... Hmmm let me guess, it's the other people's faults, never yours....
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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 07:20 PM
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RE: Iran and North Korea

Well, all the TALK TALK TALK that we've been doing with them doesn't seem to be working... Some people only understand violence... We've been trying a shit loads of ways to stop the insurgents in Iraq, be their friends, house to house S&D missions... Letting the Iraq troops and police take a more active roll in policeing their own... Yet it doesn't stop... They want to kill as many Americans as posable... And they won't stop untill they do...
And now listening to the new Iraq is going into civil war... How do we stop this?? Talk to them... Pouder puff their asses??? As long as you have the tribal, warlord system.. You will never have pease in the middle east... Iran has a group, 1 million strong, they will run into the line of fire, Unarmed... Waves and waves untill they overrun the area, and thus take the weapons off the dead... What do you do when you have that? (Like in Korea) durring the war there, where waves and waves and waves of Chineese troops ran our troops, and the troops of SK almost into the ocean... During the Iran/Iraq war, this group did just that, pushed the better armed, better equiped Iraqi army back... Just running in unarmed wave after wave untill they got to the Iraqi weapons... You can't win by talking to them... you must show a strong entry.. A nuke would do just that...

I may be a lot of things, but I know when talking is better for all, then their are times when brute force is needed...

When WW2 was over, we told the Germans that WE were in control... When we won over Japan, WE went in and said WE are in control... We went into Iraq and Afganistan and said, YOU will be in control.. When?? No clue, just we want you to be in control.. How??? No idea... If we went into these counteries and put our foot down, like we did in WW2.. I don't think we would be having much problems today... Hell, if we took and pushed all the way to Baghdad during the first Gulf War, we wouldn't be having this much trouble today... And we would've had more support of the world then... Some countries just need a royal ass kicking before they get the picture... MASS numbers must die for them to see the futility of their aggressions and transgressions...

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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 07:32 PM
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RE: Iran and North Korea

Oh, and on a side bar, I don't hate them.. Even tho they've killed friends and family of mine... I don't hate them... I do understand what they are trying to do... I don't agree with their methods... If they just came out WAY WAY before the get go.. And had their UN leaders say what the problems were, this all may have been avoided... It's not my fault 9/11 happened... It's not my fault the erresopnsable actions my political leaders made... I take blame in what I personaly do, and did in the past...

My political views have nothing to do with my busness sence...

If somone were to lay 100K in my lap to purchas a busness... I wouldn't just blow it... Before I'd invest in ANYTHING with somone elses money, I'd be DAMN sure that it would be worth the investment... Since the investment would only cover a small ammount of the hole busness... I will not burry myself any more than I already have.. I want to dig out, not get further in...

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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 08:02 PM
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RE: Iran and North Korea

I think any country has the right for nuclear weapons. If a county has money and resources for nuclear weapons then that country is rich enough not to receive aid.

So let them have their nuclear weapons and lets cut all aid to that country, because they are rich enough to have nuclear weapons.

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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 08:13 PM
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RE: Iran and North Korea

Oh if it were only that simple... Any country willing to spend the money on nukes, when they can use the same cash to buy food for their people are begging to be nuked... Why??? Cause they will use those nukes to "bargin" for sactions being lifted... As well as terrorize their neighbors ( like pakistan and india ).. Nope, the world doesn't need more nukes... We have to many as it is....

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