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post #181 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 01:05 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
Criticizing democracy by calling one's opponents in argument, "Nazis" is not especially useful method of political persuasion of one's opponents.
What's the difference between that and being labeled as Liberal regardless of party affiliation?

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post #182 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 01:13 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
You have a low opinion of the "American people".
Why do you think the intervention in Kosovo was acceptable? Or Somalia?
Why do you think Clinton regretted not going into Rwanda?
The "American people" have an easier time stomaching humanitarian missions than you think.
If Bush would have said "look, Iraqis are dying by the thousands under this authoritarian monster with no end in sight. And in the age of Al Qaeda, knowing Saddam inclinations, the wise thing to do is end the misery." They could have use the WMD stuff as legal background but it shouldn't have been elevated as high as it was.
Iraq is and was the perfect opportunity to shake off the cold war alliances of convenience and act as the moral leader of the free world. Helping shed a dictator is the correct thing to do.
Chip,
First of all, you don't need to quote 3 pages to get to what you want to say.

Secondly, I think KV already answered most of your questions.

Thirdly, here I go in case you missed KV's answer. If GW would come out and be straight with the American people that he wanted a war because his poor daddy was being threatened, the whole country and the Congress would laugh him all the way back to 1700 Pennsylvanian Ave.

Fourthly, we not only shook off alliances of convenience, we shook off all alliances. America is more alone in the World's theater than ever.

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post #183 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 01:24 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
elau - 2/27/2006 3:13 PM

Quote:
You have a low opinion of the "American people".
Why do you think the intervention in Kosovo was acceptable? Or Somalia?
Why do you think Clinton regretted not going into Rwanda?
The "American people" have an easier time stomaching humanitarian missions than you think.
If Bush would have said "look, Iraqis are dying by the thousands under this authoritarian monster with no end in sight. And in the age of Al Qaeda, knowing Saddam inclinations, the wise thing to do is end the misery." They could have use the WMD stuff as legal background but it shouldn't have been elevated as high as it was.
Iraq is and was the perfect opportunity to shake off the cold war alliances of convenience and act as the moral leader of the free world. Helping shed a dictator is the correct thing to do.
Chip,
First of all, you don't need to quote 3 pages to get to what you want to say.

Secondly, I think KV already answered most of your questions.

Thirdly, here I go in case you missed KV's answer. If GW would come out and be straight with the American people that he wanted a war because his poor daddy was being threatened, the whole country and the Congress would laugh him all the way back to 1700 Pennsylvanian Ave.

Fourthly, we not only shook off alliances of convenience, we shook off all alliances. America is more alone in the World's theater than ever.
Your major problem is you have a lot of "what if's". What if they had done this, what if they had said that. The fact of the matter is they didn't, and if they had done otherwise I doubt it would happen. If Bush had gone to congress and said "well guys, Saddam has been purging people since he took power(forget we gave him the means to do so), he tried to kill my dad, and I think he's a bad guy. Will you give me like 500 billion dollars to go get him?" Can you imagine the reaction he would get from people?

You need to simply get over the what if's and accept reality. We were told we were going to Iraq for WMD's and an al-queda connection. None of this freeing people and humanitarian bullshit. The United States has a shitty record when it comes to humanitarian efforts. We've yet to fight a war (Bosnia/Kosovo kind of) on purely humanitarian grounds. Even when we went into WW2 the jewish extermination camps were not a widely known fact. We went into WW2 because they attacked us, not because we wanted to save some jews.

Honestly, I'm sick watching people explain things to you over and over again. It starts looking like you can't comprehend the situation at large, which may say something about your level of intelligence.
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post #184 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 02:25 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
Botnst - 2/27/2006 1:37 PM

Quote:
Shane - 2/27/2006 1:20 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 2/27/2006 8:04 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 2/26/2006 9:07 PM

Stop, hey what's that sound
Everybody look what's comin' down...


Fights Break Out At Neo-Nazi Rally In Orlando

POSTED: 2:44 pm EST February 25, 2006
UPDATED: 10:11 pm EST February 25, 2006
ORLANDO, Fla. -- Two opposing groups hurled insults at each other across police barricades Saturday during a tension-filled neo-Nazi rally that culminated in 17 arrests.

Clad in khaki uniforms, tall black boots and red arm patches bearing swastikas, about 30 members of the National Socialist Movement were barricaded on one side by SWAT team members.

On the other side, a group of black-clad counter-demonstrators, many covering their faces with black masks, held anti-Nazi signs.
Several counter-demonstrators were arrested before the march officially began when pockets of violence erupted, police said.

A total of 17 people were arrested Saturday, including 14 members of out-of-town groups such as the Skinheads Against Racial Prejudices and the Southeastern Anarchist Network were arrested, said Orlando Police spokeswoman Barb Jones.

All faced charges including disorderly conduct, battery on a law enforcement officer and wearing a mask, police said.

No members of the Minneapolis-based National Socialist Movement were arrested, police said. A spokesman for the neo-Nazi group said they were protesting crime in Orlando.

During the march, the group held signs bearing slogans such as "White People Unite." Later, they made Nazi salutes at the federal courthouse as a SWAT team separated the white supremacists from a jeering crowd.

About 500 spectators and counter-demonstrators followed the group through Parramore, a historically black Orlando neighborhood. Grandparents held the hands of their grandchildren as they watched the march from the front of their homes.

"The older generation grew up seeing hate. They grew up seeing these kinds of groups being open and I think for some African-Americans they want the younger generations to see that hate still exists," said the Rev. O'Hara Black of Mt. Pleasant Baptist Church.
But other Parramore residents felt the march was a personal affront.
"For them to come into our neighborhood it's wrong, it's a slap in the face," said Donnell Jones, 33.

Art Litka and his family pinned large, yellow stars of David to their shirts in what they called a silent protest against the neo-Nazi group.
"There's anger and disgust," said Litka, 58. "This is an outrage that this kind of demonstration has to occur."

Before the rally, authorities encouraged counter-demonstrators to stay home, hoping to avoid the violence that occurred when the same group marched through Toledo, Ohio, in October. A riot ensued, during which protesters threw rocks at police and burned down a bar.
About 300 law enforcement officers, including K-9 units and officers on horses, patrolled Saturday's rally, Jones said.
I'm feeling sorry for the poor, oppressed Nazis. According to our resident dickheads here at OT, the USA is run by Nazis and yet, they can't even hold a parade without getting stoned.

Or something like that.

Bot
How dare we criticize democracy! The NERVE!
Criticizing democracy by calling one's opponents in argument, "Nazis" is not especially useful method of political persuasion of one's opponents.
The beginnings of the third reich started innocently too. There should always be criticism, and it should never, ever, fucking ever, be stifled for any reason.
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post #185 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 02:41 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
Shane - 2/27/2006 4:25 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 2/27/2006 1:37 PM

Quote:
Shane - 2/27/2006 1:20 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 2/27/2006 8:04 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 2/26/2006 9:07 PM

Stop, hey what's that sound
Everybody look what's comin' down...


Fights Break Out At Neo-Nazi Rally In Orlando

POSTED: 2:44 pm EST February 25, 2006
UPDATED: 10:11 pm EST February 25, 2006
ORLANDO, Fla. -- Two opposing groups hurled insults at each other across police barricades Saturday during a tension-filled neo-Nazi rally that culminated in 17 arrests.

Clad in khaki uniforms, tall black boots and red arm patches bearing swastikas, about 30 members of the National Socialist Movement were barricaded on one side by SWAT team members.

On the other side, a group of black-clad counter-demonstrators, many covering their faces with black masks, held anti-Nazi signs.
Several counter-demonstrators were arrested before the march officially began when pockets of violence erupted, police said.

A total of 17 people were arrested Saturday, including 14 members of out-of-town groups such as the Skinheads Against Racial Prejudices and the Southeastern Anarchist Network were arrested, said Orlando Police spokeswoman Barb Jones.

All faced charges including disorderly conduct, battery on a law enforcement officer and wearing a mask, police said.

No members of the Minneapolis-based National Socialist Movement were arrested, police said. A spokesman for the neo-Nazi group said they were protesting crime in Orlando.

During the march, the group held signs bearing slogans such as "White People Unite." Later, they made Nazi salutes at the federal courthouse as a SWAT team separated the white supremacists from a jeering crowd.

About 500 spectators and counter-demonstrators followed the group through Parramore, a historically black Orlando neighborhood. Grandparents held the hands of their grandchildren as they watched the march from the front of their homes.

"The older generation grew up seeing hate. They grew up seeing these kinds of groups being open and I think for some African-Americans they want the younger generations to see that hate still exists," said the Rev. O'Hara Black of Mt. Pleasant Baptist Church.
But other Parramore residents felt the march was a personal affront.
"For them to come into our neighborhood it's wrong, it's a slap in the face," said Donnell Jones, 33.

Art Litka and his family pinned large, yellow stars of David to their shirts in what they called a silent protest against the neo-Nazi group.
"There's anger and disgust," said Litka, 58. "This is an outrage that this kind of demonstration has to occur."

Before the rally, authorities encouraged counter-demonstrators to stay home, hoping to avoid the violence that occurred when the same group marched through Toledo, Ohio, in October. A riot ensued, during which protesters threw rocks at police and burned down a bar.
About 300 law enforcement officers, including K-9 units and officers on horses, patrolled Saturday's rally, Jones said.
I'm feeling sorry for the poor, oppressed Nazis. According to our resident dickheads here at OT, the USA is run by Nazis and yet, they can't even hold a parade without getting stoned.

Or something like that.

Bot
How dare we criticize democracy! The NERVE!
Criticizing democracy by calling one's opponents in argument, "Nazis" is not especially useful method of political persuasion of one's opponents.
The beginnings of the third reich started innocently too. There should always be criticism, and it should never, ever, fucking ever, be stifled for any reason.
You're just like the early Nazis offering baseless criticism of everybody who disagrees with you.

Bot
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post #186 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 03:01 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
Ammonium - 2/27/2006 3:24 PM

Quote:
elau - 2/27/2006 3:13 PM

Quote:
You have a low opinion of the "American people".
Why do you think the intervention in Kosovo was acceptable? Or Somalia?
Why do you think Clinton regretted not going into Rwanda?
The "American people" have an easier time stomaching humanitarian missions than you think.
If Bush would have said "look, Iraqis are dying by the thousands under this authoritarian monster with no end in sight. And in the age of Al Qaeda, knowing Saddam inclinations, the wise thing to do is end the misery." They could have use the WMD stuff as legal background but it shouldn't have been elevated as high as it was.
Iraq is and was the perfect opportunity to shake off the cold war alliances of convenience and act as the moral leader of the free world. Helping shed a dictator is the correct thing to do.
Chip,
First of all, you don't need to quote 3 pages to get to what you want to say.

Secondly, I think KV already answered most of your questions.

Thirdly, here I go in case you missed KV's answer. If GW would come out and be straight with the American people that he wanted a war because his poor daddy was being threatened, the whole country and the Congress would laugh him all the way back to 1700 Pennsylvanian Ave.

Fourthly, we not only shook off alliances of convenience, we shook off all alliances. America is more alone in the World's theater than ever.
Your major problem is you have a lot of "what if's". What if they had done this, what if they had said that. The fact of the matter is they didn't, and if they had done otherwise I doubt it would happen. If Bush had gone to congress and said "well guys, Saddam has been purging people since he took power(forget we gave him the means to do so), he tried to kill my dad, and I think he's a bad guy. Will you give me like 500 billion dollars to go get him?" Can you imagine the reaction he would get from people?

You need to simply get over the what if's and accept reality. We were told we were going to Iraq for WMD's and an al-queda connection. None of this freeing people and humanitarian bullshit. The United States has a shitty record when it comes to humanitarian efforts. We've yet to fight a war (Bosnia/Kosovo kind of) on purely humanitarian grounds. Even when we went into WW2 the jewish extermination camps were not a widely known fact. We went into WW2 because they attacked us, not because we wanted to save some jews.

Honestly, I'm sick watching people explain things to you over and over again. It starts looking like you can't comprehend the situation at large, which may say something about your level of intelligence.

Well I too am sick of explaining ad nauseum that the Iraqi invasion wasn't simply about WMDs. And that Bush didn't lie. And that the status quo with Iraq couldn't continue. And that Iraq was a threat.
Try reading through Bushs SOTUs and UN addresses prior to the invasion. But I am also trying to point out that there's plenty of room for criticism too.
It gets tiresome reading people creating straw men when they're trying to argue a point with me.
And if you honestly think my "intelligence" and "comprehension" are in question why do you bother debating?




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post #187 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 03:37 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
And if you honestly think my "intelligence" and "comprehension" are in question why do you bother debating?
Hard to resist an easy target?

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post #188 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 03:37 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Chip, they are not debating. They are repeating what they suspect is the truth. If they do it enough, whether it is the truth or not will be irrelevant.

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post #189 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 03:49 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
azimuth - 2/27/2006 3:37 PM

They are repeating what they suspect is the truth. If they do it enough, whether it is the truth or not will be irrelevant.
You have captured the current administration's chief method of communicating elegantly. Nicely done!

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post #190 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-27-2006, 04:13 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
old300D - 2/27/2006 5:37 PM

Quote:
And if you honestly think my "intelligence" and "comprehension" are in question why do you bother debating?
Hard to resist an easy target?

Set your sights elsewhere then.




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