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post #151 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 04:47 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
elau - 2/25/2006 6:22 PM

Quote:
I have used the Deulfer report to reply to people they say Iraq was an innocuous little country minding its own business. It wasn't. It was a nasty regime hemmed in by years of brutal sanction but was worming it way out, through bribery, and was dead set on returning to its former evil self.
First of all, please point out from whom, and where did anyone on this thread said Iraq was an innocuous little country minding its own business? The debate has been that Iraq is a misguided target in the war of terrorism. The real target should always been OBL and his cronies who are responsible for 9/11. If Bush put forth the same efforts into Afghan to hunt and kill OBL as he does in Iraq, you bet your arse I give him my full support. Instead, the Iraqi occupation is a personal agenda, and I have problem with that. I can care less if he finances a personal war out of his pocket, but when he lied and use our tax money, it's a no-no in my book.


It has been pointed out through out this board. Germanstar has made smart assed replies along those lines and someone has compared Iraq to Greenland.
I have repeatedly asked what people would have done with Iraq and I either get silence or some snide "the same thing we do with Greenland" comment.
And quit trying to narrow the debate parameters.
This has been nothing more then a never ending anti Bush tirade.
And I'm a tad confused about this "Iraq being a distraction on the war against OBL". So do you think the US should invade Pakistan? Frankly that's the only way that he's going to be killed or captured.
Iraq is part of the greater terrorism picture.




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post #152 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 04:48 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
chiphomme - 2/25/2006 2:19 PM

The WMDs stockpiles issue was a disaster in more ways than one. It was lamely used as the caus belli for the invasion and then completely undermined our credibility on any other intelligence fronts. I am in complete agreement with that aspect of the Deulfer findings.
I have used the Deulfer report to reply to people they say Iraq was an innocuous little country minding its own business. It wasn't. It was a nasty regime hemmed in by years of brutal sanction but was worming it way out, through bribery, and was dead set on returning to its former evil self.
Saddam needed to be dealt with. He was vile beyond description. I find it troubling that after Rwanda and the Yugoslavia break up mess that anyone can honestly be of the opinion that Iraq is none of our concern. Bush 1 failed to protect the innocent people of Iraq and Clinton engaged in a low scale war that only hurt the weaker elements of Iraqi society. It was time to end this nonsense.
Couple that with the rise of al Qaeda and its need for a host country I believe the invasion was the prudent thing to do.
Is the current sectarian violence troubling? yes.
Does it worry me? yes.
Does that mean the invasion was a mistake? no.

Chiphomme, while I still do not agree with you, I can at least understand what you are trying to get across. The real problem with ending ruthless, vicious dictators unilateraly as we did in Iraq is the unilateralness of the action. Had this become a NATO or a UN sponsored activity, we would not be in the jam we are in today. And the reason no one of significance jumped in to help us other than Great Britain is, as you have noted and I will take a little liberty paraphrasing, we lied about the rationale of WMD. The other problem is we tied it to the war on terror, which is also actually a lie. Had we been honest about the rationale you proposed, which is more humanitarian than many of the reasons to invade Iraq that have been attributed to Bush to date, we would likely not be the villians to rest of the world we have become, and we would not be less credible internationally than the terrorists.

This kind of debate should have started in the Congress, and if it had sufficient support to rescind the existing Congressional Resolution on the subject (which says it is the US government's strong desire to unseat Saddam, and towards that end, we will only offer money, weapons and training (conducted outside Iraq with US armed forces) to an internal movement within Iraq seeking to overthrow Saddam) and garner international support, it would have been an other than unilateral invasion for reasons that remain unclear. The humanitarian mission you support was not the rationale for "Shock and Awe" and the ground invasion of March 2003.

Jim
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post #153 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 04:59 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
Botnst - 2/25/2006 1:25 PM

You were going to write something critical concerning teh current administration so they blocked it with the Halliburton Flux Capacitor Coil.
You had me going, as the trick happened again. I googled the Halliburton flux capacitor and found nothing, so I concluded this is some glitch in the software. Jim
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post #154 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 05:07 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
JimSmith - 2/25/2006 6:48 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 2/25/2006 2:19 PM

The WMDs stockpiles issue was a disaster in more ways than one. It was lamely used as the caus belli for the invasion and then completely undermined our credibility on any other intelligence fronts. I am in complete agreement with that aspect of the Deulfer findings.
I have used the Deulfer report to reply to people they say Iraq was an innocuous little country minding its own business. It wasn't. It was a nasty regime hemmed in by years of brutal sanction but was worming it way out, through bribery, and was dead set on returning to its former evil self.
Saddam needed to be dealt with. He was vile beyond description. I find it troubling that after Rwanda and the Yugoslavia break up mess that anyone can honestly be of the opinion that Iraq is none of our concern. Bush 1 failed to protect the innocent people of Iraq and Clinton engaged in a low scale war that only hurt the weaker elements of Iraqi society. It was time to end this nonsense.
Couple that with the rise of al Qaeda and its need for a host country I believe the invasion was the prudent thing to do.
Is the current sectarian violence troubling? yes.
Does it worry me? yes.
Does that mean the invasion was a mistake? no.

Chiphomme, while I still do not agree with you, I can at least understand what you are trying to get across. The real problem with ending ruthless, vicious dictators unilateraly as we did in Iraq is the unilateralness of the action. Had this become a NATO or a UN sponsored activity, we would not be in the jam we are in today. And the reason no one of significance jumped in to help us other than Great Britain is, as you have noted and I will take a little liberty paraphrasing, we lied about the rationale of WMD. The other problem is we tied it to the war on terror, which is also actually a lie. Had we been honest about the rationale you proposed, which is more humanitarian than many of the reasons to invade Iraq that have been attributed to Bush to date.

This kind of debate should have started in the Congress, and if it had sufficient support to rescind the existing Congressional Resolution on the subject (which says it is the US government's strong desire to unseat Saddam, and towards that end, we will only offer money, weapons and training (conducted outside Iraq with US armed forces) to an internal movement within Iraq seeking to overthrow Saddam) and garner international support, it would have been an other than unilateral invasion for reasons that remain unclear. The humanitarian mission you support was not the rationale for "Shock and Awe" and the ground invasion of March 2003.

Jim

The Bush administration diplomatically blew it out their ass. They should never have gone to the UN with WMDs as the their main rationale. Ignoring the UN, like Clinton did over Kosovo, would have been a better move. Instead we foisted weak intelligence as our center piece. Why not use something concrete, like the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of people?
Now look. No one believes a freakin thing the US says over Iran and North Korea.
Regardless, I have been of the opinion that Iraq should have been purged of Saddam ever since Bush 1 pathetically stopped the rout of Iraqi forces in 1991.
I have also always believed the country should be divided into three autonomous sections (dividing up the oil revenue fairly).











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post #155 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 05:15 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
chiphomme - 2/25/2006 7:07 PM



The Bush administration diplomatically blew it out their ass. They should never have gone to the UN with WMDs as the their main rationale. Ignoring the UN, like Clinton did over Kosovo, would have been a better move. Instead we foisted weak intelligence as our center piece. Why not use something concrete, like the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of people?
Now look. No one believes a freakin thing the US says over Iran and North Korea.
Regardless, I have been of the opinion that Iraq should have been purged of Saddam ever since Bush 1 pathetically stopped the rout of Iraqi forces in 1991.
I have also always believed the country should be divided into three autonomous sections (dividing up the oil revenue fairly).










This is the first time ever that I think I am agreeing with you...
But I don't know about the dividing deal, that would just set the stage for some other wars...
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post #156 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 05:41 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
chiphomme - 2/25/2006 6:47 PM
It has been pointed out through out this board. Germanstar has made smart assed replies along those lines and someone has compared Iraq to Greenland.
I have repeatedly asked what people would have done with Iraq and I either get silence or some snide "the same thing we do with Greenland" comment.
And quit trying to narrow the debate parameters.
This has been nothing more then a never ending anti Bush tirade.
And I'm a tad confused about this "Iraq being a distraction on the war against OBL". So do you think the US should invade Pakistan? Frankly that's the only way that he's going to be killed or captured.
Iraq is part of the greater terrorism picture.
Well, this may surprise you, but when we find evidence that Osamma is in Pakistan and they have been harboring him, I would be all for doing whatever it takes to correct the situation. If invading Pakistan was deemed necessary, had we not gone through the process of lying about Iraq and invading them unilaterally, we likely would not be going into Pakistan alone. Iraq did nothing directly or indirectly to foster the 9-11 attack. Clinging on to the straws of the lies that, yes, the Bush Administration started and promotes, merely makes getting past this crap and working on the real problem, Osamma and Al-Qaeda, more problematical.

Chiphomme the deal is Iraq is a distraction in the fight against terror. Bush did lie. We, the United States are sending brave men, such as yourself, and women to fight for a political agenda that has never been justified or even debated in the open forums of Congress. That is just not acceptable. It is not the President's perogative to expend American soldier's lives for a political agenda that is not in defense of the United States. To do so is Nazi-like and scary to 18 to 60 year olds today. We are recycling Vietnam era veterans, meaning guys my age and older. That is pitiful. Guys with trifocals and arthritis or other worn out body part diseases are going to make things worse, not better. The fact that the draft will have to be reinstated is a sign that America's youth is wary of pledging allegiance to the present Commander in Chief.

I think you attribute the disgust with a President who would expend brave American volunteer soldiers' lives for an undisclosed and therefore not debated and vetted, personal political agenda with some kind of acceptance of Saddam as a reasonable man. That is a mistake. As an American, I want America strong and straight and true before I spend lives and treasure on erasing guys like Saddam outside America.

Jim
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post #157 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 05:42 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
chiphomme - 2/25/2006 4:47 PM

It has been pointed out through out this board. Germanstar has made smart assed replies along those lines and someone has compared Iraq to Greenland.
Has Iraq attacked U.S. territory

a). more than
b). less than
c). an amount equal to

the number of times Greenland has attacked U.S. territory?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #158 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 06:07 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

A man holding a gun on your friend (a friend who has the keys to everything you own) has not threatened you so why should it disturb you?

B
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post #159 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 06:19 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
Botnst - 2/25/2006 6:07 PM

A man holding a gun on your friend (a friend who has the keys to everything you own) has not threatened you so why should it disturb you?

B
Can you see the gun? I mean to say that it wouldn't disturb me if it was an invisible gun.

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post #160 of 237 (permalink) Old 02-25-2006, 06:25 PM
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RE: Are Bush Supporters ready to admit Iraq was a collossal mistake?

Quote:
GermanStar - 2/25/2006 8:19 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 2/25/2006 6:07 PM

A man holding a gun on your friend (a friend who has the keys to everything you own) has not threatened you so why should it disturb you?

B
Can you see the gun? I mean to say that it wouldn't disturb me if it was an invisible gun.
Nevermind that you can not see the gun, or verify by any means known to man that the gun exists. Just pretend it was real. Then what? Jim
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