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post #31 of 85 (permalink) Old 02-15-2006, 09:54 PM
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RE: Mr. Amr Khaled’s Message to the World regarding the Danish Cartoons

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Shabah - 2/15/2006 11:52 PM
that there are way over six percent ignorant fucks in the West that pretend to know what’s best for the rest of the world.
Hmmm...actually it's about 50%. Why, is that a problem? [:0]
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post #32 of 85 (permalink) Old 02-15-2006, 09:57 PM
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RE: Mr. Amr Khaled’s Message to the World regarding the Danish Cartoons

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Marsden - 2/15/2006 11:54 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 2/15/2006 11:52 PM
that there are way over six percent ignorant fucks in the West that pretend to know what’s best for the rest of the world.
Hmmm...actually it's about 50%. Why, is that a problem? [:0]
It's hopeless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #33 of 85 (permalink) Old 02-15-2006, 10:18 PM
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RE: Mr. Amr Khaled’s Message to the World regarding the Danish Cartoons

Shabah,

Since I have grown to respect your opinions as a kind of bridge between the Muslim perspective and the West's perspective on the same data, and I am not certain the whole problem of these clashing perspectives can be adequately addressed, ever, how about we try to just understand the tools of communication and how they are used in each culture.

From experience dealing with the Japanese in business that is mostly technical, I can tell you I find their customs most alarming. It is acceptable to lie rather than argue, which may work in some fields, but when Mother Nature is the ultimate arbitrator of all arguments, lying is just not acceptable. This became a barrier to effectively working with the Japanese guys in a specific company.

The example at the beginning of the this thread, the dissertation that went on and on, for a long time and then was refuted, summarily dismissed, from the Western reader's perspective anyway, by the relatively short, last paragraph is, to me, a clear example of a basic misunderstanding between the two culures. The Western mind would never spend that much time and effort enunciating something that was going to be blown away by a single sentence by the same author. This is an indication of the basic rules for communicating being different. We need to be able to understand why the Muslim mind does this, and how we are expected to interpret such communication attempts. It would also help if the Muslims were a little more aware of the Western thought processes that have evolved to share in the responsibility of trying to get the message across to the other guys.

Anyway, it seems to me some understanding of the rules by both parties would be beneficial. As it is, I have no choice but to condlude the flowery first 90% of that dissertation was bullshit, an intentional lie. Is that what a Muslim would conclude? Why or why not? If not, how come? Jim
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post #34 of 85 (permalink) Old 02-15-2006, 10:37 PM
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RE: Mr. Amr Khaled’s Message to the World regarding the Danish Cartoons

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JimSmith - 2/16/2006 12:18 AM

Shabah,

Since I have grown to respect your opinions as a kind of bridge between the Muslim perspective and the West's perspective on the same data, and I am not certain the whole problem of these clashing perspectives can be adequately addressed, ever, how about we try to just understand the tools of communication and how they are used in each culture.

From experience dealing with the Japanese in business that is mostly technical, I can tell you I find their customs most alarming. It is acceptable to lie rather than argue, which may work in some fields, but when Mother Nature is the ultimate arbitrator of all arguments, lying is just not acceptable. This became a barrier to effectively working with the Japanese guys in a specific company.

The example at the beginning of the this thread, the dissertation that went on and on, for a long time and then was refuted, summarily dismissed, from the Western reader's perspective anyway, by the relatively short, last paragraph is, to me, a clear example of a basic misunderstanding between the two culures. The Western mind would never spend that much time and effort enunciating something that was going to be blown away by a single sentence by the same author. This is an indication of the basic rules for communicating being different. We need to be able to understand why the Muslim mind does this, and how we are expected to interpret such communication attempts. It would also help if the Muslims were a little more aware of the Western thought processes that have evolved to share in the responsibility of trying to get the message across to the other guys.

Anyway, it seems to me some understanding of the rules by both parties would be beneficial. As it is, I have no choice but to condlude the flowery first 90% of that dissertation was bullshit, an intentional lie. Is that what a Muslim would conclude? Why or why not? If not, how come? Jim
Jim, I think the dude was full of shit too. It does not take a Western or Eastern mind to see this. I agree…

I am not even in the same frequency as this pretender to peace and so called seeker of clarity, he was twisting arms as he ranted through his bullshit. As to my post, it was a response to jjl rather than justifying the dude’s message.

As you can see there is actually a common ground in seeing through all this. The cultures aren’t that far apart at least from my perspective. I guess at least I put in the effort to learn English even though I have no formal schooling since I never even finished elementary school but that does not stop me from trying to learn and most importantly understand what makes us human and how to live with each other. What frightens me here is that so many posters here are relatively fairly educated yet resort to a state that is befitting to an IQ below that of a rat. I would not even imagine a small percentage of them to really try to bridge by attempting for example to learn Arabic because they think that would be beneath them.


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post #35 of 85 (permalink) Old 02-15-2006, 11:00 PM
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RE: Mr. Amr Khaled’s Message to the World regarding the Danish Cartoons

I understand that only a very small portion of Islam worshipers are radicals. However, when your radicals go on TV with video's of our citzens being beheaded. You would have to expect that we would be rather critical and unsupportive when you are offended by a cartoon. Don't you think? Also, Mcdonald's and KFC did not draw or publish these cartoons. Seems like misguided droans to me. Kind of reminds me of the guys in brown shirts! We should call it night of the broken drive thru, don't you think??
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post #36 of 85 (permalink) Old 02-15-2006, 11:15 PM
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RE: Mr. Amr Khaled’s Message to the World regarding the Danish Cartoons

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Robschaef - 2/16/2006 1:00 AM

I understand that only a very small portion of Islam worshipers are radicals. However, when your radicals go on TV with video's of our citzens being beheaded. You would have to expect that we would be rather critical and unsupportive when you are offended by a cartoon. Don't you think? Also, Mcdonald's and KFC did not draw or publish these cartoons. Seems like misguided droans to me. Kind of reminds me of the guys in brown shirts! We should call it night of the broken drive thru, don't you think??
Again, let’s call a spade a spade shall we
Those radicals that behead people are not Muslims and will never be forgiven by people like me even if there is a tribunal out there that would set them free. As to the destruction of property because it happens to be an American franchise that also is stupid because they most likely owned by local. Hell, even if they were owned by Americans there was no reason to do so. I am not going to pretend that ignorance is not rampant in our part of the world but at least I would like to see a balance where you must acknowledge that you have your zealots too. They may not go around and ransack places while rioting but boy do they do more damage. Look at the situation in the Middle East as driven by the policies of your so wise leadership. What do you call your Secretary of State when she goes before congress while being grilled about the failure of the executive and then she goes on about wanting a few $$$ to spread decent in Iran to try to destabilize that government???? Again, it’s this kind of stupid interventions that draw anger and put people in a corner rather than try to negotiate a solution. I am not a sympathizer of the Iranian government but this latest move by your administration is just the tip of many moves that are befitting of a deranged and dysfunctional organization.
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post #37 of 85 (permalink) Old 02-16-2006, 01:53 AM
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RE: Mr. Amr Khaled’s Message to the World regarding the Danish Cartoons

Back to the article, while it all points and sounds nice, the end message is that the west should change its ways to suit the islamic population, or at least understand that every muslim holds dear to his heart the prophet. Well, what if the West said the isalmic population should adjust its opinions to suit freedom of speech? You must understand that the cartoons were printed in a western society, free to do as they please, and not bound in any way or form by someones mere beliefs, muslim or christian.

Im sorry, but the article sounds to me like one muslim telling the world that all muslims are entitled to have the worlds freedom of speech changed to suit them. As far as i know the rest of the world doesnt base laws heavily on religion, let alone islam. And that every muslim hold the prohet dearer to his heart than anything else? So what. What does that have to do with non muslims? are they supposed to be below muslims in terms of saying what they feel?

What im getting at is that the printing of the cartoons are defamatory to muslims, according to them. I dont like seeing my Australian Flag burned either, but we dont impose that law on foreigners or citizens, here or abroad. We have no right to whatsoever. And on the topic of percentages of muslims that are fanatical, why was a predominantly muslim neighbourhood celebrating so vividly in the streets of their austalian city, after 9/11, that makes you think they are such a 'minority'. Underlying sentiment runs deep.

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post #38 of 85 (permalink) Old 02-16-2006, 03:07 AM
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RE: Mr. Amr Khaled’s Message to the World regarding the Danish Cartoons

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am3037 - 2/16/2006 3:53 AM
And on the topic of percentages of muslims that are fanatical, why was a predominantly muslim neighbourhood celebrating so vividly in the streets of their austalian city, after 9/11, that makes you think they are such a 'minority'. Underlying sentiment runs deep.
Oh really. Which Australian city? Any substantiation of this? Or did you dream it?
Those muslims weren't gay by any chance were they hmm?
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post #39 of 85 (permalink) Old 02-16-2006, 08:53 AM
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RE: Mr. Amr Khaled’s Message to the World regarding the Danish Cartoons

The Right to Offend

Ayaan Hirsi Ali

I am here to defend the right to offend.
It is my conviction that the vulnerable enterprise called democracy cannot exist without free expression, particularly in the media. Journalists must not forgo the obligation of free speech, which people in other hemispheres are denied.

I am of the opinion that it was correct to publish the cartoons of Muhammad in Jyllands Posten and it was right to re-publish them in other papers across Europe.

Let me reprise the history of this affair. The author of a children's book on the prophet Muhammad could find no illustrators for his book. He claimed that illustrators were censoring themselves for fear of violence by Muslims who claimed no-one, anywhere, should be allowed to depict the prophet. Jyllands Posten decided to investigate this. They -- rightly - felt that such self-censorship has far-reaching consequences for democracy.

It was their duty as journalists to solicit and publish drawings of the prophet Muhammad.
Shame on those papers and TV channels who lacked the courage to show their readers the caricatures in The Cartoon Affair. These intellectuals live off free speech but they accept censorship. They hide their mediocrity of mind behind noble-sounding terms such as 'responsibility' and 'sensitivity'.

Shame on those politicians who stated that publishing and re-publishing the drawings was 'unnecessary', 'insensitive', 'disrespectful' and 'wrong'. I am of the opinion that Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen of Denmark acted correctly when he refused to meet with representatives of tyrannical regimes who demanded from him that he limit the powers of the press. Today we should stand by him morally and materially. He is an example to all other European leaders. I wish my prime minister had Rasmussen's guts.

Shame on those European companies in the Middle East that advertised "we are not Danish" or "we don't sell Danish products". This is cowardice. Nestle chocolates will never taste the same after this, will they? The EU member states should compensate Danish companies for the damage they have suffered from boycotts.

Liberty does not come cheap. A few million Euros is worth paying for the defence of free speech. If our governments neglect to help our Scandinavian friends then I hope citizens will organise a donation campaign for Danish companies.

We have been flooded with opinions on how tasteless and tactless the cartoons are -- views emphasising that the cartoons only led to violence and discord. What good has come of the cartoons, so many wonder loudly?

Well, publication of the cartoons confirmed that there is widespread fear among authors, filmmakers, cartoonists and journalists who wish to describe, analyse or criticise intolerant aspects of Islam all over Europe.

It has also revealed the presence of a considerable minority in Europe who do not understand or will not accept the workings of liberal democracy. These people - many of whom hold European citizenship - have campaigned for censorship, for boycotts, for violence, and for new laws to ban 'Islamophobia'.
The cartoons revealed to the public eye that there are countries willing to violate diplomatic rules for political expediency. Evil governments like Saudi Arabia stage "grassroots" movements to boycott Danish milk and yoghurt, while they would mercilessly crash a grassroots movement fighting for the right to vote.

Today I am here to defend the right to offend within the bounds of the law. You may wonder: why Berlin? And why me?

Berlin is rich in the history of ideological challenges to the open society. This is the city where a wall kept people within the boundaries of the Communist state. It was the city which focalized the battle for the hearts and minds of citizens. Defenders of the open society educated people in the shortcomings of Communism. The work of Marx was discussed in universities, in op-ed pages and in schools. Dissidents who escaped from the East could write, make films, cartoons and use their creativity to persuade those in the West that Communism was far from paradise on earth.

Despite the self-censorship of many in the West, who idealised and defended Communism, and the brutal censorship of the East, that battle was won.

Today, the open society is challenged by Islamism, ascribed to a man named Muhammad Abdullah who lived in the seventh century, and who is regarded as a prophet. Many Muslims are peaceful people; not all are fanatics. As far as I am concerned they have every right to be faithful to their convictions. But within Islam exists a hard-line Islamist movement that rejects democratic freedoms and wants to destroy them. These Islamists seek to convince other Muslims that their way of life is the best. But when opponents of Islamism try to expose the fallacies in the teachings of Muhammad then they are accused of being offensive, blasphemous, socially irresponsible - even Islamophobic or racist.

The issue is not about race, colour or heritage. It is a conflict of ideas, which transcend borders and races.

Why me? I am a dissident, like those from the Eastern side of this city who defected to the West. I too defected to the West. I was born in Somalia, and grew up in Saudi Arabic and Kenya. I used to be faithful to the guidelines laid down by the prophet Muhammad. Like the thousands demonstrating against the Danish drawings, I used to hold the view that Muhammad was perfect -- the only source of, and indeed, the criterion between good and bad. In 1989 when Khomeini called for Salman Rushdie to be killed for insulting Muhammad, I thought he was right. Now I don't.

I think that the prophet was wrong to have placed himself and his ideas above critical thought.

I think that the prophet Muhammad was wrong to have subordinated women to men.

I think that the prophet Muhammad was wrong to have decreed that gays be murdered.

I think that the prophet Muhammad was wrong to have said that apostates must be killed.

He was wrong in saying that adulterers should be flogged and stoned, and the hands of thieves should be cut off.

He was wrong in saying that those who die in the cause of Allah will be rewarded with paradise.
He was wrong in claiming that a proper society could be built only on his ideas.

The prophet did and said good things. He encouraged charity to others. But I wish to defend the position that he was also disrespectful and insensitive to those who disagreed with him.

I think it is right to make critical drawings and films of Muhammad. It is necessary to write books on him in order to educate ordinary citizens on Muhammad.

I do not seek to offend religious sentiment, but I will not submit to tyranny. Demanding that people who do not accept Muhammad's teachings should refrain from drawing him is not a request for respect but a demand for submission.

I am not the only dissident in Islam. There are more like me here in the West. If they have no bodyguards they work under false identities to protect themselves from harm. But there are also others who refuse to conform: in Teheran, in Doha and Riyadh, in Amman and Cairo, in Khartoum and in Mogadishu, in Lahore and in Kabul.

The dissidents of Islamism, like the dissidents of communism, don't have nuclear bombs or any other weapons. We have no money from oil like the Saudis. We will not burn embassies and flags. We refuse to get carried away in a frenzy of collective violence. In number we are too small and too scattered to become a collective of anything. In electoral terms here in the west we are practically useless.

All we have are our thoughts; and all we ask is a fair chance to express them. Our opponents will use force to silence us. They will use manipulation; they will claim they are mortally offended. They will claim we are mentally unstable and should not be taken seriously. The defenders of Communism, too, used these methods.

Berlin is a city of optimism. Communism failed. The wall was broken down. Things may seem difficult and confusing today. But I am optimistic that the virtual wall, between lovers of liberty and those who succumb to the seduction and safety of totalitarian ideas will also, one day, come down.
Berlin, 9.02.06
Ayaan Hirsi Ali
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post #40 of 85 (permalink) Old 02-16-2006, 01:11 PM
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RE: Mr. Amr Khaled’s Message to the World regarding the Danish Cartoons

Quote:
Marsden - 2/17/2006 8:07 PM

Quote:
am3037 - 2/16/2006 3:53 AM
And on the topic of percentages of muslims that are fanatical, why was a predominantly muslim neighbourhood celebrating so vividly in the streets of their austalian city, after 9/11, that makes you think they are such a 'minority'. Underlying sentiment runs deep.
Oh really. Which Australian city? Any substantiation of this? Or did you dream it?
Those muslims weren't gay by any chance were they hmm?
Sydney Rd, Coburg, Melbourne. Also in Lakemba, Sydney. It was on the News here in Australia. They were celebrating the 9/11 tradgedy (though i remember seeing some muslims condemning the actions of those celebrating), not rubbing each other down listening to Ministry of Sound albums in bad hair and makeup on the back of a gay pride trailer. It happened in several western cities around the world, France was another one. Do you guys in the US have predominantly Iraqi/Lebanese/Iranian suburbs?

Cheers,
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