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post #221 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-12-2006, 09:36 AM
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Quote:
deathrattle - 2/12/2006 7:58 AM


She would deserve a whole lot more respect from my perspective if she poked her head out of the middle ages and embraced rational thought.Such dogmatic attitudes are an insult to human achievement over the past couple of centuries.

I view having a dialogue on the subject, and becoming aware of the barriers that have been erected within the minds of people like Tahloube on the issue of the role of religion in their lives, as enlightening. It has not made the issue any less alarming for me, but that was not the intent as I don't believe Tahloube started out with the premise here that this thought process is alarming or that he/she was seeking to make it less alarming.

There is a fundamental difference in the thought process of minds that operate as Tahloube's and mine. I am responsible and accountable to me for everything I do. Not God. If God wanted a gadget with a simpler program he would have stopped the process with cats or lizards. God made humans a little more complicated and gave us the self awareness to invent a God to worship in recognition of how peculiar our existence seems to us, along with the ability to make decisions as an individual. Tahloube apparently believes it is God's will to have humans set aside these capabilities in large numbers and let a few tell the rest how to interpret our inner feelings, sounds we hear, patterns that are recieved on our retinas and what we feel when we touch other people and things that share our time on Earth.

For many, apparently, that provides some feeling of security. For others, such as myself, it is living death. I enjoy exploring my mind's capacity to think and process data, formulating plans and testing my ideas by putting them into action and observing the results. There are many things I thank God for in my life, and being free to investigate my environment without constraints beyond my own limitations is right up there with family, health and being fortunate enough to be an American. To stop and let someone else do that for me would be to live the rest of my life dead.

I do not see much benefit in trying to convert minds like Tahloube's and would therefore seek ways to "live and let live" that do not disadvantage either approach. Jim
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post #222 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-12-2006, 10:15 AM
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Quote:
Tahloube - 2/12/2006 8:13 AM

The punishment for apostasy is death. Now, what do you call a religion that promises you death if you embrace it then renounce yet still attracts so many people to it (from other religions or even atheism) despite the serious punishment? I call it THE TRUE RELIGION.
In the old days, the punishment for quitting being a Yakuza or a Mafia was -- you guessed it -- death.

While the code is no longer strictly enforced in either examples, they still manage to exist as a result of attracting new recruits.

We call such institutions "ORGANIZED CRIME."

****

are you saying that any religion other than Islam is not a true religion?

As an Islam, you would certainly know Akbar. Under his rule, the Mughal Empire reached unprecedented prosperity. One of the key factors that contributed to the rise of the empire was religious tolerance - in particular, the respect and equal rights for the Hindu masses to practice their religion under his Islamic rule.



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馬鹿は死ななきゃ治らない。

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post #223 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-12-2006, 12:51 PM
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

One for Marsipam

Selling Out Moderate Islam
Washington's misbegotten campaign to be loved in the Middle East.
by Reuel Marc Gerecht
02/20/2006, Volume 011, Issue 22



THE DANISH CARTOONS of the Prophet Muhammad, like Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini's 1989 fatwa against the British author Salman Rushdie and those who helped publish his Satanic Verses, have revealed more disturbing things about the West than they have about Muslims in Europe and the Middle East. With Rushdie, Westerners deplored the Iranian cleric's death warrant but often temporized their condemnation by suggesting that the then hard-left author had been, as the former, redoubtable New York Times correspondent Kennett Love once put it, "mean to Islam." (Few prominent Muslim clerics and intellectuals could bring themselves to make an unqualified condemnation of Khomeini's actions; an enormous number of Muslim clerics, intellectuals, and scholars chose to remain quiet, and in their silence there was surely often both fear and assent.)

With Denmark, the initial response of the Bush administration aligned America more with those Muslims who felt the cartoons impugned their sacred messenger than with the European press that had printed the caricatures. Sean McCormack, the assistant secretary of state for public affairs, declared, "Anti-Muslim images are as unacceptable as anti-Semitic images, as anti-Christian images, or any other religious belief." Former President Clinton echoed this sentiment while visiting the Persian Gulf emirate Qatar: "None of us are totally free of stereotypes about people of different races, different ethnic groups, and different religions. . . . There was this appalling example in northern Europe, in Denmark, . . . these totally outrageous cartoons against Islam." Senator John Kerry, too, took umbrage: "These and other inflammatory images deserve our scorn, just as the violence against embassies and military installations are an unacceptable and intolerable form of protest."

Former Democratic congressman Tim Roemer, a member of the 9/11 Commission, which was deeply worried about the woeful image of the United States in the Muslim world, articulated what many Democrats and Republicans were surely thinking but not saying: "We have done precious little to effectively communicate to the hearts and minds and win that long-term war. . . . This seems to be an opportunity to condemn the cartoons and communicate directly with the Muslim people on a host of issues." And across the Atlantic, French President Jacques Chirac, who still hasn't recovered from Muslim French youth rioting last fall, gave the most "sensitive" European response: "Anything liable to offend the beliefs of others, particularly religious beliefs, must be avoided."

Beyond the question of whether any of these men really means what he says--it's not hard to imagine Clinton, Kerry, the Anglophone Chirac, or McCormack enjoying Monty Python's relentlessly mocking, anti-Christian romps Life of Brian and The Meaning of Life--they all echo a common view about Muslim sentiments and Western policy since 9/11, and especially since the Anglo-American invasion of Iraq. To wit: We need to encourage interfaith dialogue, we need to show that the West, particularly America, is not opposed to Islam, and we need to solve, or at least play down, points of friction between the West and the Islamic world. (Until the victory of Hamas in the Palestinian elections, this view inevitably underscored progress on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as indispensable to better relations.)

ANTI-AMERICANISM is the great bugaboo for these folks, and the more wonkish among them often have at their finger-tips polling data showing what a sorry state the United States is in among Muslims worldwide. A good, highly polemical example of this mindset is The Next Attack by Daniel Benjamin and Steve Simon, former counterterrorist officials in the Clinton administration. In their book, Benjamin and Simon zealously use polls, and the opinions of unnamed American and European intelligence officials, to argue that the Bush administration is losing the war against Islamic holy warriors.

However well intended, this empathetic view is seriously wrong-headed. It camouflages what is really at stake in Denmark and the rest of Europe with these cartoons. This type of hearts-and-minds strategy will inevitably backfire, compromising the very Muslims that this administration and liberal Democrats would most like to see advance in the Middle East, Europe, and the United States.

For better or worse, expatriate and foreign-educated Middle Easterners have helped to shape decisively the secular and religious cultures that have dominated their homelands since World War II. Many of the best and brightest of the Middle East now live abroad. Many have sought greater freedom of expression and personal liberty in the West. Is it Presidents Clinton and Chirac's desire that Muslim satirists never develop because their work would be insensitive to less irreverent Muslims? In its heyday, Islamic civilization contained many heterodox and heretical strains. In particular, Shiism, always a vehicle for minority protest, was rich in movements and cultural experimentation that sometimes electrified and horrified the Sunni Muslim world.

It is possible that Muslims living outside the Middle East will have a substantial role to play in revivifying Islamic civilization--in shedding some light on the convulsive path that one may still hope will lead from dysfunctional dictatorship through bin Ladenism to more peacefully self-critical, democratic societies. If Westerners appease Muslims who countenance violent intimidation, we are doing a terrible injustice to the liberal and progressive Muslims among us, who really would like to live in lands where people can say about the Prophet Muhammad what they have said about Jesus, Mary, and Moses. Among the Muslims of the United States and Europe, if not in the Middle East, there are many who have Western cultural sentiments and wit. The irreverent, religiously skeptical Western elite has Muslim members and Middle Eastern counterparts of equal intelligence and similar tastes. Islamic civilization may yet produce its Edward Gibbon, a sincere religious voyager who ends up scrutinizing the foundations of his civilization with a skeptical, cynical, and, at times, profoundly unfair irreligious eye. It would appear that if President Clinton had his way, a Muslim Gibbon would not be welcome in the United States.

The fate of European Muslims is now openly in play. The militant Muslims of Europe who do not want their brethren to embrace the continent's liberal, thoroughly secular culture helped fuel this controversy by emailing and faxing the offending cartoons to their spiritual allies in the Middle East. Most European Muslims, like their non-Muslim compatriots, didn't notice and probably would not have cared about these caricatures, if it had not been for the activist imams in their midst.

AS IMPORTANT, the governments of the region also took sides. As Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice noted, somewhat tardily, the Syrian and Iranian regimes are trying to exploit this event for all that it's worth. Damascus and Tehran, more closely allied than ever before, are under pressure from the West for their terrorist and nuclear ambitions, respectively. Both have responded by inciting demonstrations in Lebanon and Syria. It is a bizarre spectacle to observe the heretical Shiite-Alawite Baathist regime in Damascus--which has in the past been on the cutting edge of anti-Islamic pan-Arab nationalist propaganda and slaughtering thousands in the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood--now defend the Prophet Muhammad from Danish despoliation.

Tehran has probably also been behind the demonstrations in Iraq. And the government-controlled media throughout the region, especially in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, have not been helpful. As the French scholar Olivier Roy acutely noted in Le Monde, Europe is now in the cross hairs of many Middle Eastern governments for its more activist role in the region since the invasion of Iraq. The French, British, and Germans have taken the lead in trying to thwart Tehran's nuclear ambitions. France has sided with the United States against Syria in Lebanon. Most of Europe under the umbrella of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization is now in Afghanistan, increasingly in combat roles against Taliban insurgents and the holy warriors of al Qaeda. And however timidly, Europe has joined the United States in calling for more open political systems in the Muslim Middle East. Democracy is an ugly word to most of the region's rulers. With official encouragement, anti-Europeanism is bound to rise throughout the area. Muslim autocrats, in conjunction with European and Middle Eastern Muslim militants, are likely to interfere increasingly in Europe's internal affairs to create fear and a more hesitant European community.

And the controversy over the Danish cartoons could conceivably betray the most important, though least remembered, player in this controversy: the average Muslim in the Middle East. Far more than most Middle Eastern Muslims and politically correct Western scholars of the region and Islam would like to admit, Western standards for individual liberty, curiosity, personal integrity, scholarship, and the political relations among men have become the defining benchmarks for Muslims everywhere, however resented or admired. If our standards collapse and give way to fear, theirs in the long-term have no chance whatsoever. The psychology of victimization--surely one of the worst gifts the Western anti-imperialist left has given the Muslim world--can only be made worse by Westerners who treat Muslims like children unable to compete and to defend their religion.

In the Middle Ages, Christian theologians said vastly worse things about the Prophet Muhammad than the Danish cartoons implied. Back then, Muslims cognizant of what the Christians were writing usually took it in stride, not too perturbed by the ruminations and calumnies of a superseded faith. Non-Muslims living beyond the writ of Islamic law were not expected to respect a prophet not their own. That is, after all, what it means to be benighted infidels.

To be healthy, Muslim pride and political systems need to be based on real accomplishments, where the average believer can feel that he is participating in a larger, productive enterprise. (In the classical and medieval Islamic eras, when Muslim armies usually defeated their non-Muslim enemies, manifestly fulfilling the divine promise that Muslims were God's chosen people, maintaining both collective and individual pride was much easier.) Western indulgence of supposed Muslim outrage over these cartoon insults to the prophet is pretty demeaning. It can only fortify the destructive, self-pitying impulses that all too often paralyze Muslim conversations and thought. (One of the more bizarre facts of the modern Middle East is to see the ruling Muslim elites of these countries--men and women of considerable influence and privilege--bemoan their powerlessness owing to the hidden, omnipresent, all-powerful machinations of the West, in particular, the United States.)

LURKING BEHIND much of the American response to the Danish cartoons is a difficult, probably impossible, and certainly unnecessary short-term foreign-policy goal: improving the image of the United States among Muslims. There is perhaps nothing more debilitating for the Bush administration than to believe that anti-anti-Americanism ought to be a key component in our overseas policy. Anti-Americanism in and of itself is not a catalyst for Islamic terrorism. There are many other, vastly more important things, both historical and personal, at work inside young Muslim men (and occasionally women) who decide to kill themselves and others to express their love of God and their hatred of the United States. Muslims who loathe these holy-war killers and want to see them extirpated from their societies can often themselves dislike, if not hate, the United States for a wide variety of reasons, some legitimate, some fictitious, some surreal. On the traditional side, Muhammad Sayyid at-Tantawi, the head of al-Azhar, Cairo's famous seat of Sunni Islamic learning, and Egypt's grand mufti, Ali Gomaa, would probably fall in this category. So would the European Muslim "modernist" Tariq Ramadan and many members of the Arabic Al Jazeera television network, who can marry a real hatred for bin Laden with an exuberant loathing of the United States. Iraq is chock-full of devoutly religious Shiite and Sunni Muslims who abhor suicide bombers and religious radicals in their midst yet harbor--have probably always harbored--distinctly unfriendly attitudes toward the United States.

A greater liking for the United States would not enhance the counterterrorist credentials of any of the above. In all probability, more pro-American commentary by these men would do just the opposite. The spreading of democracy in the Arab Middle East will naturally increase, not diminish, anti-Americanism. The only exceptions to this rule may be Iraq and Syria.

Syria is the least certain, since the Syrian wing of the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood would probably do very well in any free election there. And the Brotherhood--unlike Iraq's Shiite religious parties, which have seen an American-led war against a barbarous tyrant and the enormous rise in pro-American sentiment in Shiite Iran--is consistently and deeply anti-American, as is the Brotherhood mothership in Egypt. We should not, however, be alarmed by this phenomenon. There is just too much historical baggage for the United States to overcome it quickly or easily.

Before the Bush administration, Washington usually gave unquestioning support to dictatorships in the region. And there is the little fact, always near the surface in the Muslim world but often ignored or forgotten in the United States, of nearly 1,400 years of always-competitive, often intimately antagonistic and violent, history between Christendom and Islam. There is Israel, which even the most liberal and moderate Muslims often acutely dislike. (The Jewish state is, after all, an existential insult to both Arab nationalism and Islamic pride, even for Arab Muslims who view Arab nationalism as a cultural catastrophe and view the faith as irrelevant to their lives.) And there is the very tricky issue of women, which often animates progressive, traditional, and fundamentalist conversations.

America is seen by all as a force supporting change in the dynamics between Muslim men and women. Touching the well-ordered, paternalistic home, which Muslim men, poor or rich, have always seen as a bedrock of their identity, is unavoidably convulsive. There is no way to gauge how many recruits fundamentalists have made on the women's issue since the Muslim Brotherhood formed in 1928. It's a decent bet that it has been a more intimate and effective message than the fraternal appeals after 1948 to eject the Jews from Israel.

American foreign policy has long been in the odd position of trying to assuage Muslim anger at Israel by advancing the peace process even though a sober analysis should have told Washington's diplomats that the fundamentalist set--the young men who are most susceptible to making the leap to suicidal holy war--did not see this process as progress. (The victory of Hamas in the Palestinian elections has perhaps made evident what should have been obvious for years. But the sclerotic peace-process establishment in Washington, second in influence only to the transatlanticists, may not see what Hamas has tried to write as pellucidly as possible.)

And Washington has consistently advanced, especially in the Bush administration after 9/11, the women's agenda throughout the region, another sure-fire way of angering the young men who are most likely to transmute into jihadists. American foreign policy should never be tailored to appease the anger of Muslim men--though, if we are to be honest, this is in part what we've been trying to do in the Israeli-Palestinian confrontation and in much of our Muslim-oriented public-diplomacy.

What is striking is that Washington has been doing the opposite of what it intends and doesn't know it. Americans have acted, at least on the issues of Israel and women's rights, as if the Muslim world had a liberal silent majority waiting to rise up and embrace these issues as we do. In all likelihood, this isn't so. Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani of the holy city of Najaf in Iraq, who has repeatedly saved us from potential disaster in Mesopotamia, wrote numerous fatwas after the fall of Saddam Hussein on the proper comportment and dress for female believers. In Western eyes, his conclusions would hardly be called liberal--yet his commitment to democracy in Iraq is real. (Concerning the cartoons, Sistani also strongly condemned the "misguided and oppressive" elements of the Muslim community whose actions "projected a distorted and dark image of the faith of justice, love, and brotherhood." Though no fan of the caricatures, Sistani is giving a slap to Tehran and its agents in Iraq.)

AS WE SAW IN EGYPT, the West Bank, and Gaza, Sunni Muslim fundamentalists are going to be among those pushing seriously for democratic change in the Middle East, and will, as in the Palestinian territories, surely be among those who benefit most from the collapse of secular autocracy. A rise in anti-Americanism throughout the region seems inevitable. And it is healthy.

With dictatorship giving way to democracy, Muslims of various stripes will make their best case to their brethren on why they should be given a chance to govern. The religious radicalization of the Muslim body politic, which has gained ground under autocracy, will likely lose speed, if not rapidly reverse itself. Young men who feel most acutely the injustices of their societies and have the testosterone-driven determination to do something about it will have broader personal experience and a wider range of political options than to embrace just the mosque, where Muslims have usually found brave and tenacious popular heroes when they could find them nowhere else. Let us be frank: For every Said Eddin Ibrahim, a courageous secular liberal who has seen the inside of Egypt's prisons, there are several religiously motivated dissidents who are willing to question President Mubarak's rule. Few of the Arab liberals and progressives one meets at conferences appear to have the intestinal fortitude of fundamentalists who are similarly opposed to their regimes.

What we have seen happen in the Islamic Republic of Iran under clerical dictatorship--the conversion of the most anti-American holy-warrior society into the least anti-American, probably most pro-democratic culture in the region--will likely happen elsewhere but even more rapidly if Sunni fundamentalists are given a chance to gain power democratically and demonstrate to their fellow Muslims how their interpretation of the Holy Law and Islamic history will improve their lives.

Correctly understood, anti-Americanism when it accompanies the loosening of political controls in the Middle East is a sign that the status quo that gave us bin Ladenism and 9/11--the perverse marriage of autocracy and Islamic extremism--is coming apart. Under dictatorship, Muslims cannot evolve politically. They will not be able to confront the "baggage" that all Middle Eastern Muslims have with the West, especially the United States, and come to a livable consensus on how they are going to absorb Western ideas, influence, and money. Even in Iran, where the bankruptcy of a virulently anti-American clerical dictatorship has done wonders for the democratic ethic and the prestige of the United States, a functioning democracy is probably the only way the Iranian people will find a sustainable, peaceful modus vivendi with their complicated love-hate for America. It is democracy, not dictatorship, that can best take Muslims through the difficult religious reformation that is well under way among both Shiites and Sunnis. (Correctly understood, bin Laden is an ugly expression of protest against the region's rot.)

This is all about internal Muslim evolution, about coming to terms with the centuries-long absorption of both good and bad Western ideas. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether the Israeli-Palestinian peace process can somehow soon resume. When al Qaeda's princes--bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi--rail against the intrusion of Western democracy into the Muslim world, they know what they are talking about. If it succeeds, democracy will eventually kill them off. It will pull fundamentalist believers--the pool that bin Ladenism must draw from to survive--into the great ethical and spiritual debates that can best happen when free people fight it out in elections. Only Muslims--only fundamentalist Muslims--have the power to kill off bin Ladenism. Historically, there is no reason to believe this will happen under the dictatorships that gave birth to Islamic extremism in the first place.

Like Christendom before it, the Muslim Middle East will have to work out its relation to modernity. The faster democracy arrives, the sooner the debates about God and man can begin in earnest. It will probably be for both Muslims and Westerners a nerve-racking experience. But we have no choice, since continuing autocracy will only make the militants' message stronger and judgment day, as in Iran, a possibly bloody revolutionary event. The electoral victory of Hamas should not give us pause. It should give us hope and encourage us to push for real elections where our national interest stands to gain the most--in Egypt and Iran. We should also not neglect to defend vigorously Christian, Muslim, or Jewish satirists, be they clever, banal, or ugly, wherever they may be found. Both elections and satire are basic to the evolution of the Muslim world.



Reuel Marc Gerecht is a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and a contributing editor to The Weekly Standard.

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post #224 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-12-2006, 09:51 PM Thread Starter
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Quote:
JeepersCreepers - 2/12/2006 6:58 AM

I appreciate the effort to explain "A Muslim's point of view." I have a question.

So many people reacted with such anger at a cartoon showing a visage of the prophet with a bomb in his headdress. Yet we have seen hundreds of photos and videos of Muslims holding bombs and guns under signs that proclaim the "greatness of Allah" and praising the Prophet. These photos are of young men and women who then went on to blow themselves up killing many innocents.

If the cartoon was such an insult, why are not photos of Muslims holding bombs before they kill people also insults? And why didn't these photos stir protest and anger among the Musllim people?

Can someone explain that to me?
Jeepers Creepers:

I'll try to answer your question. You'll have to consider the
following points:

** Prophet Muhammed is a very important figure in Islam. He's the Messenger of Allah that conveyed the message of Islam. He was a man of many great qualities. Muslims love him and respect him a lot. People who know about his qualities also show him respect and acknowledge his achievements though not necessarily believe in his message. Then came the cartoons.


** Those "young men and women who then went on to blow themselves up killing many innocents" don't do it for the sake of murder. Most of them do it in self-defence or in their fight for freedom. It's not Islam's fault that a few Muslim countries are under occupation and that their people (mainly Muslims) are fighting for freedom that a lot of other nations enjoy. We Muslims belive it's our right to be free (I believe freedom is essential in the West, too). Please take a look at this article written by James A. Bill (professor of government and director of the Reves Center for International Studies at the College of William and Mary in Virginia:
http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=article&id=91
Especially where he says:
"… Although the great bulk of Muslims seek to improve their status through quiet, moderate and pacific means, violent methods have been adopted by fringe groups—elements also present in Christianity and Judaism. Oblivious to their own profound ignorance and often harboring crude political motivations, many Western opinion leaders consistently label all Muslims with words such as 'aggressive', 'militant' and 'uncivilized'. Islam is the 'religion of the sword'; Muslim activists are 'terrorists,' and Muslims countries that challenge Western policies are 'outlaw states'.

Muslims themselves maintain quite a different worldview. It is in the deepest interest of the United States to attempt to understand this perspective. In brief, Muslims see themselves as the afflicted, not the afflictors; they feel themselves desperately on the defensive, not on the offensive; they consider themselves the objects of violence, not the initiators of violence. In sum, Muslims across the world consider themselves victims. In support of their position, Muslims will take their Christian and Jewish neighbors on a quick tour of the world. They inevitably begin with Bosnia, where nearly 200,000 Muslims have been slaughtered by Serbian Christians. Muslims are horrified and sickened by the fact that 22,000 Muslim women, aged 9 to 82, have been raped by Christian troopers. Muslims wonder privately about the weak and very late Western response.

In Kashmir, Indian occupying forces violently oppress Muslims, killing thousands of Kashmiris. Elsewhere in India in December 1992 and January 1993, violent Hindu mobs went on a rampage in Bombay, killing over 800 Muslims, destroying 5000 Muslim homes and forcing 200,000 Muslims to flee the city. Mosques were firebombed and mothers watched as their sons were pulled from their homes and slain or burned alive. In Tajikstan and other places in Central Asia, the Communists have made a comeback and, with the help of Russian troops, have attacked and killed more than 20,000 Muslims. Another 350,000 have been forced to flee.

Even in China, Muslims find themselves under heavy military pressure. Chinese troops oppress Muslims in the western province of Xinjiang.

Even in many of the predominantly Muslim countries of the Middle East, Muslims find themselves under attack where the leadership is essentially secular. In Iraq, Saddam Hussein continues his war of genocide against the Shi'ites in the south.

In Algeria, when the Islamists scored a surprise victory in the December 1991 elections, the regime declared the election null and void. Since then, Algeria has been the scene of a bloody civil war. The government blames Islamic fundamentalists of striking terror in the very same areas where they had received majority of votes from. The governments explanation of fundamentalists unleashing waves of terror in their own strongholds, sounds very plausible indeed and casts shadows of dound over the credentials of the secular government instead.

In Egypt, Hosni Mubarak's regime, facing widespread disaffection of its people, pursues a policy of torture and execution of members of the Muslim opposition. In March 1993, his troops fired upon 500 unarmed Muslims at prayer in the Rahman Mosque in Aswan, killing nine and injuring 50. In the West Bank, another more widely publicized mosque massacre occurred a year later in Hebron when a Jewish settler killed 30 in a group of praying Muslims before the survivors could beat him to death. This litany of anti-Islamic violence is recognized and recited by Muslims everywhere. The situation is exacerbated when Muslims incredulously find themselves labeled as terrorists and when Western governments encourage their secular Middle Eastern allies to confront Muslim populist movements with brute force. One result of these Western perceptions and policies, of course, is that they begin to radicalize the huge mass of moderate Muslim believers. Meanwhile, the extremists on the fringes become more active and militant.

A vicious cycle of misunderstanding, misguided policy and increasing violence has been set in motion. Before this vicious cycle begins to spin wildly out of control, it is essential that non-Muslims make a major effort to slow it down. Such an effort will, as the very first step, require that stereotypes be discarded.
"

I hope I helped answering your question.


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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Quote:
jjl - 2/13/2006 5:07 PM

'Now, what do you call a religion that promises you death ..'

Evil?
What do you call a bolt in an airplane engine? I don't know.. a bolt? But it must be important otherwise you will not find it there. Will you fly in a plane with some missing bolts if the maintenance engineer tells you they are for some purpose.
Islam is the religion 'engineered' by God (It's up to you to believe that or not). When God who created me and blessed me with so many things tells me something, I obey. Why do I have to listen to anybody else instead?

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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Quote:
deathrattle - 2/12/2006 3:58 PM


She would deserve a whole lot more respect from my perspective if she poked her head out of the middle ages and embraced rational thought.Such dogmatic attitudes are an insult to human achievement over the past couple of centuries.

The last couple of centuries saw both human achievements and inhuhumane acts of brutality. In my opinion, belief in God and the Afterlife would have made a difference to the latter. If humans can't a find a balance between materialism and spirituality they will hardly find happiness.

Middle Ages was a peak for Islamic civilisation and low point for the west. Now the case is reversed (and this is life). Don't you see a linear relation between the implementation of Islam among Muslims and their achievement of development? I do. I know enough about my history to prove my claim. If that's not the case with other religions or schools of belief, then at least let's exclude Islam from generalisation.

Rational thought is amnog the things that make me very much into Islam. Apply some rational thinking to Islam yourself and you will most probably understand me, maybe become a Muslim, who knows? But don't argue about islam when you don't know it. You may know about Muslims who misunderstand their own religion. Don't copy their very mistake. Have you ever heard about Yusuf Islam, aka Kat Stevens? Yvonne Ridley? These are Brittons just like you, why do you think they embraced Islam and changed their lifestyle?

Aware of human achievements, especially in telecommunications, I'd rather see human cultures drawn closer to not farther by insult or wars.


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post #227 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-12-2006, 11:01 PM Thread Starter
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Quote:
ThrillKill - 2/13/2006 5:07 PM

Quote:
Tahloube - 2/12/2006 7:13 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 2/12/2006 4:33 PM
.
.
.
Are you certain your are accurate in this?

What is the punishment for apostasy?

Bot
I am sure, Botnst. One veteran atheist I know is my aunt's husband and he lived in many (Arab) Muslim countries, although he doesn't keep his thoughts to himself and he makes sure everyone he meets knows about his beliefs (or disbeliefs). The rest (I know of) have rediscovered Islam and became good practicers of it.

The punishment for apostasy is death. Now, what do you call a religion that promises you death if you embrace it then renounce yet still attracts so many people to it (from other religions or even atheism) despite the serious punishment? I call it THE TRUE RELIGION.
Why is it that your omnipotent God relies on mere mortals to execute those who turn their backs on the Muslim faith?


Simply because life was meant to be a 'test' for humans..how they live and govern themselves. That's why there are rules and laws. The Afterlife is ultimate the reward or punishment for a person's deeds in this life on earth. It's all up to God then to punish or reward. Isn't this what Islam, Christianity and Judaism is all about?
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post #228 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-12-2006, 11:17 PM Thread Starter
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Quote:
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The punishment for apostasy is death. Now, what do you call a religion that promises you death if you embrace it then renounce yet still attracts so many people to it (from other religions or even atheism) despite the serious punishment?
The ultimate suppression of rational thought -- utter barbarism. Truth (as in true religion) flourishes without coercion.

Right. Yet, you will not find the truth if you don't look for it. It's very rare that the truth comes your way by chance. I know you don't belive in God as a whole. But I challenge you to read about Islam and keep that thought.

Death penalty for apostates is not an act of coercion. (Those with doubts/questions can discuss them with scholars until they arrive at a convention, noone is killed immediately. Human life is precious and I believe Islam was a leader in declaring that ) It's a measure to keep hypocrits from announcing their repeated going into and out of Islam which will only help distract attention from the teachings of Islam to the acts of those hypocrits and encourge a bad idea about Islam in the minds of non-Muslims. The case these days being the teachings of Islam vs. acts of terrorism.



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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Quote:
Jillian80 - 2/13/2006 5:54 PM

Quote:
jjl - 2/12/2006 8:07 AM

'Now, what do you call a religion that promises you death ..'

Evil?
That's the word I was thinking.

I will tolerate almost any view because I expect the same in return. However, I'm not sure I can tolerate one that promises death.

That was a qoute out of context. Death penalty is only for those who kill on purpose or cheat on their spouses or apostate. Believe me, no Muslim who really knows Islam would want to apostate. If they have a doubt they can have it cleared easily. I know what I'm talking about and I know you most probably will not understand me simply because you don't understand Islam. You don't know what it's all about.

Jillian, did you know that most new Muslim converts in the US and Europe are women. Doesn't that make you think 'why'?

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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Thank you, JimSmith. Your attitude is encouraging. By the way, I'm a she. Allow me to clear a couple of points.

I believe God (as narrated in the Quraan) created us all, humans, with the great ability to learn. God also created angels who never err nor sin and reated Satan who is capable of lots of evil. Mankind, on the other hand, are able to do both good and bad and have the choice (to which they will be either rewarder or punished). God told us too that a human who does generally good (but sometimes bad and repents) is better than angels because it's his choice to be good. There are many forces that makes us do bad and God tells us he knows all that because he created us that way. He knows our thoughts and hopes and desires and will not punish/reward us according to them but for our actions only. How fair. There are no 'chosen people ' in Islam. But if you're a good Muslim, you will definitely want people to become Muslims like you because you care.

"There is a fundamental difference in the thought process of minds that operate as Tahloube's and mine. I am responsible and accountable to me for everything I do."
Me too. God tells me that, too.

"Tahloube apparently believes it is God's will to have humans set aside these capabilities in large numbers and let a few tell the rest how to interpret our inner feelings, sounds we hear, patterns that are recieved on our retinas and what we feel when we touch other people and things that share our time on Earth"
No, maybe I misrepresented my ideas or you misunderstood me. Quran keeps telling us to look around us, see, think, rationalise, and tells us this helps us to know God. The only other help to knowing God is by the Messengers of God whose job is to tell us how God wants us to worship Him and what guidelines He has set to help us live life with the least of suffering and with more peace of mind. God leaves the details (many) for us to figure out what's best to suit us as life/society develops only within guidelines. I find these guidelines liberating not constraining because there will always be laws set by man which the strong will impose on the weak to the best interest of the strong. But God doesnot favour anybody over anybody else. Justice in this life as much as possible. Ultimate justice in the Afterlife.

"I enjoy exploring my mind's capacity to think and process data, formulating plans and testing my ideas by putting them into action and observing the results. There are many things I thank God for in my life, and being free to investigate my environment without constraints beyond my own limitations is right up there with family, health and being fortunate enough to be an American"
I do ,too, and Muslims are encouraged to do the same.. within the guidelines set by God.

"I do not see much benefit in trying to convert minds like Tahloube's and would therefore seek ways to "live and let live" that do not disadvantage either approach."
I don't intend to convert minds, too, especially minds with rationality. I was trying to tell a Muslim's opinion, I was met with a big rock: the misunderstanding of original Islam especially when terrorism takes a toll on our ability to differentiate a good idea from its bad interpretation.


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