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post #181 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-09-2006, 06:38 PM
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

What are we fighting about? God, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are just little things to keep chidren happy. These kids things are totally silly and foolsh...it is not an adult thing worthy of discussion. Let's go back to talking about reality.
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post #182 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-09-2006, 10:46 PM
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Quote:
Shabah - 2/9/2006 3:52 PM

No doubt about it, rioting was not a smart way to confront this "problem"...
GS, those people are desparate because there is no ligitimate avenues for them to vent their frustrations. They have been taken away from them. For example, whhat kind of forum do you think they should have used to discuss this issue ina civilized manner? Write an editorial on Al-Jazira? You're not going to read it since your administration and their dumb followers already labeled it as a mouthpiece for the terrorists. Ok, maybe the NY times or The Post or Le Monde???? Like they are going to give them the time of day....
Another reason it went out off hand is that some were actually like your administration proved are backed by the local governments and then they play it like it was a popular movement of some shit.
The bottom line, like you observed, yes they lost out and they have shot themselves in the foot, but what else can they do? Maybe they should have paid a lobbyiest in DC to relay the message? Where is AIPAC's web page, let me try....
I often find myself being able to see Shabah's side of these arguments, but this one, along with much of Tahloube's seems fraught with fragmented logic and, well, excuses instead of rational explanations. Sorry, but saying you have a switch you can say someone flipped that caused you to go non-linear is just nonsense. There is no genetic explanation for Muslims havng this switch while the rest of us don't. God made us all from the same gnurb. All religious beliefs are in our heads. We are all accountable and responsible for decisions we make and actions we take as a result of those decisions. No one gets to declare an irrationality button that can be randomly accessed by others that then absolves you of being responsible for your actions.

And the excuse that you need to be heard and have no outlet other than to riot is also, essentially, without substance. If you have no outlet, make one. That is what all the rest of us have to do as we don't have the option to behave violently and expect anyone to "understand" our plight. Any civilization with the longevity and success in difficult circumstances as the Arab world has to be innovative and creative enough to do better than throw stones and start fires when they are frustrated.

Being successfully understood requires an equal effort to understand the other side. I am sorry but what I hear either boils down to "woe is me, everyone hates me so I am going outside to eat worms" or "I love my religion so it and I are justified and right, even if you have a logical point, in the end I love my religion so I am right." Neither is much of an attempt to be understood.

I can listen, but not when the discussion reminds me of Bush defending his blundering, thoughtless actions by denying he has made any mistakes and chanting he is going to stay the course. Jim
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post #183 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-09-2006, 10:51 PM
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Holy cow Jim
post #184 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-09-2006, 10:53 PM
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Sorry about that but the site kind of stalled, sending a message that the post failed. Oh well, I deleted the 5 or 6 "extras" to clean the page up. Jim
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post #185 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-10-2006, 06:02 AM
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Quote:
JimSmith - 2/10/2006 12:53 AM

Sorry about that but the site kind of stalled, sending a message that the post failed. Oh well, I deleted the 5 or 6 "extras" to clean the page up. Jim
Happens regularly now.
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post #186 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-10-2006, 07:27 AM
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

"gnurb"?

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post #187 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-10-2006, 07:30 AM
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Quote:
Tahloube - 2/9/2006 7:34 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 2/10/2006 3:00 AM

Quote:
Tahloube - 2/9/2006 6:32 PM

Quote:
430 - 2/8/2006 2:45 AM

Quote:
Tahloube - 2/7/2006 4:31 PM
That Guy,

If you really want to know why it's the fastest growing religion, do some serious reading about it from original Islamic sources. Only then will you know why.
Take a look at this. People can't deny the truth when they see it.
http://www.welcome-back.org/profile/spaulding.shtml
Especially this part:
".. After being Muslim for less than two months, another incident happened. On September 14, 2001 a young man attacked me in a grocery store. Motivated by hatred for Muslims, he jammed his cart into me so hard that it cut my back, ankles, and one of my legs. The force pushed me into the shelf of cans, causing one of the shelves to fall down on me. As the cans hurled down, they cut my head and hands. Some of the cuts later required stitches. The isle happened to be in focus of the store security camera, which captured the man as he was about to run away. The authorities soon caught him. He stayed near me, and didn’t run far. I think he was truly amazed at what he himself had done. He later said that he thought I was an Arab, as if that was a reason enough to hurt someone. He was surprised that I spoke clear English. He was further amazed when he came to know that I was a disabled American Veteran.

He was facing serious charges. I gave him the choice of either going to jail or attend lecture on Islam in ten one-hour sessions. He chose the lectures. I made sure that if he did not come to the lectures then I would retain my rights of recourse with the court system.

That very morning, I had just read a Hadith about our wonderful Prophet (pbuh) who had trash dumped on his head every morning, and then when one morning he was not treated this way, he went to check on the neighbor who was found to be sick. He had compassion
for this person. Having read this in that very morning, what else could I do? I too had a daughter about the same age as that 20-year old man. One mistake could ruin the life of this young man. Would I not want compassion for my daughter if she did something like this? He had been a good college student and was just young and did not truly have an education of Islam. Sometimes when one does not know about something, it can be scary.

He continued with the classes and actually studied Islam longer than he was required by the contract. About 6 months later in February of 2002, he declared the Shahada. I was so very happy when I got that email from him. I had moved out of the area where he was living. He then joined the local Muslim Students Association and engaged in Dawah works. Allah Akbar!

Every day, I look at the scars that I received from that attack, and I feel happy. I remember where they came from and I thank Allah for allowing this to happen. "
Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah

Lots of these stories around something happens to someone and they assume it is because they are a minority, or they are this or that.

Had you opened the link, you would've known that who said this was an American lady who embraced Islam recently not a 'minority' member. ( Her name is Ann Spaulding and she's white, if race is a problem) Unless, of course, if you consider a new American Muslim convert no longer American. (Freedom of belief?)

Another reason why it grows is that there is a penalty for apostasy.

Anybody care to talk about that?

Bot

Yes, sir. May I?

Apostasy is easy. Actually it was on my how-to-make-money list when I was a teenager. All a Muslim has to do is seek asylum somewhere in the west, state the reason as religious opression, write a book about it and BINGO! he'll be rich and famous. But they don't do it because they know it's just not right. Rather, it's absolutely wrong.
It grows because it's right. As simple as that.
Why not stay in her own country after renouncing Islam and write the book there?

Bot
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post #188 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-10-2006, 07:40 AM
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Quote:
Tahloube - 2/9/2006 4:36 PM

I don't know what to say. Your argument is very logical. If I didn't believe in religion or wasn't religious myself, I wouldn't add any more words. But that's not the case. Believe me if these cartoons were of an Arab premier or political leader or anybody else other than a big religious symbol as Prophet Mohammed (or any other prophet for that matter: Jesus, Moses, Abraham,etc.) we would have enjoyed the humour. But not the Prophet as a preacher of terrorism. No way. So let's just agree to differ, shall we?
I'm not suggesting that you should enjoy the humor. I understand the images are insulting. But why should you care if you're insulted by an ignorant child? The people responsible for publishing these images obviously do not share your beliefs, so why hold them in such high regard? I'm merely suggesting that you should not allow purveyors of ignorance to dictate your behavior.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #189 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-10-2006, 08:11 AM
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Quote:
JimSmith - 2/10/2006 12:46 AM

Quote:
Shabah - 2/9/2006 3:52 PM

No doubt about it, rioting was not a smart way to confront this "problem"...
GS, those people are desparate because there is no ligitimate avenues for them to vent their frustrations. They have been taken away from them. For example, whhat kind of forum do you think they should have used to discuss this issue ina civilized manner? Write an editorial on Al-Jazira? You're not going to read it since your administration and their dumb followers already labeled it as a mouthpiece for the terrorists. Ok, maybe the NY times or The Post or Le Monde???? Like they are going to give them the time of day....
Another reason it went out off hand is that some were actually like your administration proved are backed by the local governments and then they play it like it was a popular movement of some shit.
The bottom line, like you observed, yes they lost out and they have shot themselves in the foot, but what else can they do? Maybe they should have paid a lobbyiest in DC to relay the message? Where is AIPAC's web page, let me try....
I often find myself being able to see Shabah's side of these arguments, but this one, along with much of Tahloube's seems fraught with fragmented logic and, well, excuses instead of rational explanations. Sorry, but saying you have a switch you can say someone flipped that caused you to go non-linear is just nonsense. There is no genetic explanation for Muslims havng this switch while the rest of us don't. God made us all from the same gnurb. All religious beliefs are in our heads. We are all accountable and responsible for decisions we make and actions we take as a result of those decisions. No one gets to declare an irrationality button that can be randomly accessed by others that then absolves you of being responsible for your actions.

And the excuse that you need to be heard and have no outlet other than to riot is also, essentially, without substance. If you have no outlet, make one. That is what all the rest of us have to do as we don't have the option to behave violently and expect anyone to "understand" our plight. Any civilization with the longevity and success in difficult circumstances as the Arab world has to be innovative and creative enough to do better than throw stones and start fires when they are frustrated.

Being successfully understood requires an equal effort to understand the other side. I am sorry but what I hear either boils down to "woe is me, everyone hates me so I am going outside to eat worms" or "I love my religion so it and I are justified and right, even if you have a logical point, in the end I love my religion so I am right." Neither is much of an attempt to be understood.

I can listen, but not when the discussion reminds me of Bush defending his blundering, thoughtless actions by denying he has made any mistakes and chanting he is going to stay the course. Jim
Again, I see your point but I am not making an excuse for them, I am merely explaining why these things are happening. You have to understand if you had to hear it from anyone you should hear it from someone how knows that mentality but does not necessarily fall for it. You don’t see me rioting on this forum and accusing every one of being the devil’s spawn, do you? Jim on this one you jumped to conclusion a little too fast in labeling me…
Now back to why this is hitting the fan the way it is. Do you think that these people for the most part have access to material that builds their rationales the way you have? All they see from their end is that the West is out to get them and their governments aren’t helping but perpetuate that fear. These riots were incited by those same governments that either are foes or friends of your governments. It does not matter who they align to, this was an opportunity for them to exercise control by boiling resentment and blowing up the steam in any direction but theirs. Think about it.
You say that those people should now look into someone to lead them and show them how to be civilized. What do you think if someone would even try to step up to the plate? Yeah you guessed it, he will be taken out, but you know who will actually either pull the trigger or force the local government to act? Let me see in the last century to this day I see footprints ranging from the US, Britain and Israel in meddling in internal affairs of Arab or Muslim countries. Don’t tell me it ain’t so, otherwise you’re either a fool or simply part of this conspiracy. It’s simple, the West never wanted real democracies in the Middle East or any Muslim country, and it’s all lip service when it says that democracy is needed in those places. History has shown it and it’s proving it over and over; am I making this up?
There will never be a leader of those people unless he is immortal if he is truly looking out for their interests or totally bought and is actually making sure that in the end those people will continue their servitude to the West. That’s the reality on the ground Jim!
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post #190 of 296 (permalink) Old 02-10-2006, 06:25 PM
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RE: A Muslim's point of view...

Shabah, you are right, I attributed your attempt to provide a description of the situation as you see it from a non-participant watching in person to your outlook on the situation. I will try to be more acute in the future.

I am not a historian of any kind, much less one with a specialisation in the Middle East. However, it seems to me the bigger threat to your culture is the less substantive, "vile and pernicious" culture of the West that Frank Zappa described as the "slime oozing our of your TV set" once upon a time. The perspective you describe of the relationship between the West and the Middle East seems to be one of exploitation with the Arab world being the victim. I don't see that as much as I see, like the American Indian and the Alaskan Eskimo, a culture clash that ultimately leaves only one culture alive an well. The Western culture of the United States Almighty Dollar First depends on translating everything a human can do in life to an hourly pay rate, then, uses manipulation of the younger generation's hormones to lure the youth away first, to make them willing, even eager to exchange their entire life's work for consumer products that they think are "cool."

Once they are coverted to consumers at whatever their hourly rate is, they are assimilated. In the Middle East the fate of the Eskimo or the American Indian was averted because of your natural resource, oil. You trade oil for the agent the West uses to permeate, dillute and then subjugate your own culture, money. Once you have money you get the best service from the marketers of the products to be consumed. As a result you have a constant cultural confrontation with the West to face when you leave your door. It may be inside your home as well, selected from shelves of products made by others trading their lives for a lower hourly rate, purchased with your hourly rate and placed there by you.


Either succumb by joining the West and become desensitized to these countless affronts to your beliefs, or reject the agent of this challenge, the dollar, or any Western currency. Barter for what you need or want without the agent. Jim
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