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post #31 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-05-2006, 08:21 AM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

Like I said, one can reasonably discusss the tenets of National Socialism, or Italian Fascism, and compare them to today's GOP far right wing, and it's leader, Mr. Bush, and find not just similarities, but a more modernized, 21st Century Fascist ideaology - it's all there dude- the supremcy of the corporation and the state over the individual, the concept of endless war and "struggle" against some nebulous, hard to define enemy that requires a continual sacrifice of rights; the supremecy of political ideaology over science, where science must fit the ideaolgy and not vice versa, the subordination of the national economy to end less war, the claim of a right of "pre-emptive" invasion, and lately and most omniously, the claim by The Leader that he is above the law in matters of "national security", that he make break the law in the name of "protecting the Fatherland" - in other the words, the creation of a state where rule of men supercedes rule of law. Yes my friend, denial.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #32 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-05-2006, 08:51 AM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

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NordStern - 2/4/2006 6:37 PM
........
If Bush has in fact done anything illegal, it will catch up to him, sooner or later. That would be the America I know.
I agree. That would be the America I know as well. That is the America I love. The problem is saying that doesn't make it stay the America I love. Greed and lust for power are the same drugs today that they were when Hitler took control of Germany.

At this point you have nearly half of America ready to cede all the features that make America the unique social experiment it has been to people with a mindset that is much more similar to the Hitler regime than the America you and I would like to believe is still functioning. The willingness to cede these features, one at a time, comes from the constant drumbeat of fear. The idea we are in at war for the long haul, our true enemy is everywhere, and could be anyone. To effectively protect us, we have to endure incompetence by our public servants at all levels that is being compensated for with new encroachments on our rights. All in our best interests, remember.

You are correct. Bush is not Hitler reborn as that stuff is science fiction. But beyond that aren't we just splitting hairs and losing sight of the issue? Doesn't the list of similarities lose everyone's interest? Isn't it just easier to believe Bush is doing what he thinks is really needed, rather than read a whole long list of steps he is following that Hitler last occupied? Bush = Hitler is just too outlandish if you don't want to think about it. Until it is too late. This changing of America one pixel at a time to something un-American is underway. Sympathizing with Bush as he carries out this process is akin to suggesting Hitler was bumbling along his path trying to do the right thing too, until he just went too far. I think Bush has gone too far already. Apparently the threshold for others to become concerned is significantly farther along the process of redrawing what America is in this pixel by pixel process. Jim
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post #33 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-05-2006, 08:56 AM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

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kvining - 2/5/2006 10:21 AM

Like I said, one can reasonably discusss the tenets of National Socialism, or Italian Fascism, and compare them to today's GOP far right wing, and it's leader, Mr. Bush, and find not just similarities, but a more modernized, 21st Century Fascist ideaology - it's all there dude- the supremcy of the corporation and the state over the individual, the concept of endless war and "struggle" against some nebulous, hard to define enemy that requires a continual sacrifice of rights; the supremecy of political ideaology over science, where science must fit the ideaolgy and not vice versa, the subordination of the national economy to end less war, the claim of a right of "pre-emptive" invasion, and lately and most omniously, the claim by The Leader that he is above the law in matters of "national security", that he make break the law in the name of "protecting the Fatherland" - in other the words, the creation of a state where rule of men supercedes rule of law. Yes my friend, denial.



Are you living in North Korea? Because I think you're confused as to which country you reside.
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post #34 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-05-2006, 09:15 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

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Marsden - 2/5/2006 4:19 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 2/4/2006 9:25 PM

Hey Marsden, he quoted a whole article. Doesn't that just piss you off sumpin turrbile?
Right after you did the very same thing, in this very thread?

Are you actually getting more stupid as time goes on?
Aw come on Marsie, try to be fair and balanced.

B
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post #35 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-05-2006, 03:20 PM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

Quote:
kvining - 2/4/2006 11:34 PM

Quote:
NordStern - 2/4/2006 6:37 PM

In all due respect, Mr. Smith, I think your perception of Islam is somewhat limited.

"Ultimately the only people who can influence the response of the Muslim world to any stimulus from inside and outside their world is Muslims."

So you mean it doesn't matter at all how we, the West, handle this crisis?

"Those rational ones need to do what it takes to wrest the steering wheel away from the frantic ones who have it"

That's not how it works. Why risk being an outcast, for the sake of the West? Or get killed?

Concerning Bush, I see where you're going. But calling him a nazional sozialist is counterproductive, you know, a bit over the hill. He is not. I don't like him either, but a nazi, no.

I remember the last election very well. There was some talk of some counting mischief in Florida and such, but I can't recall any SA brownshirt guys running around and beating up political opponents. And the question of Sion and the Jews were very much in the open.

If Bush has in fact done anything illegal, it will catch up to him, sooner or later. That would be the America I know.
Instead of simple denial, as is the norm from Botnst and others on this thread, why not a rationale discussion of the actual tenets of National Socialism, and then discuss whether or not Mr. Bush fits them better than we should feel comfortable with? Myself, I do not see him as classic Jew-baiting "Nazi", what I do see him as is a man who has instituted a more modernized version of corporatist fascism. It is sophisticated, and slick. It works because those who control the massive corporations have slowly and insidously corrupted our government to the point that we no longer have a democracy - it is a shame that is now no longer much more than a dictatorship of the moneyed class over this country. It is achieved through sophisticated propaganda techniques, and massive amounts of corrupt campaign financing. Look at the results: defense spending, in an age where there is no longer a Soviet threat, where we are threatened by a bunch of rag-tag fuckers who live in caves and assorted wacko nations we could take out in a walk, we are going to have an 8% increase in defense spending. If one counted Iraq, the total will be over $500 billion dollars. Our economy has been delivered to those who make up the backbone of a fascist state - the weapons producers, the war financiers, the military establishment are rapidly turning us into a country that produces nothing more than the weapons of death and destruction.

Another point: in a Fascist state, the indivdual is subserviant to the needs of the state. If the state needs oil, it can be traded for the dead. All of this propaganda to "Support the Troops", to "Stay the course", especially "Trust the President", all of these are exhortations to make the needs of the state paramount to the right of individuals to freely discuss the functioning and direction of one's government.

Propagandized glorification of troops fighting in Iraq as some how serving some undefined or vaguely defined goals of the state that only the Leader seems to understand, while as individual one is forced into denial of the fact what the Leader is actually doing is occupyig a weaker nation against it's will, is pure Nazism. The Leader is constantly giving utter fantasy as his justification for a war which his followers utter as truth. If we allow this to become business as usual in this country, we will be no better than jackbooted fascists and adoring crowds of swastika waving morons.

Brownshirts? Have you listened to AM radio lately?
How about the point that entitlement programs take more than 1/2 the budget increasing on a steady basis. How about the fact that if you took every piece of shit pork barrel project out of the budget (all 13,xxx of them) that they would not amount to a hill of beans compared to the entitlements in the budget. How about the fact that the more money you give to the welfare system the more money people demand and the more they demand that they should not have to do anything for it and that it should be easier to get?

"The Leader is constantly giving utter fantasy as his justification for a war which his followers utter as truth." This is any different than statements out of the democrats about how republicans want to 'kill your children', or the constant hyperbole about "only helping the rich' or "republicans hate black people and want to return to slavery?"

Those that say our gov't is for sale to the special interests are absolutely correct. Those that feel it is only one party or one party is more guilty than another are just fucking morons and should pull their useless shit filled heads out of the fucking sand. Stop being ostriches.
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post #36 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-05-2006, 04:03 PM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

Yeah. I read the words you write, and have no problem agreeing with them. I like the term 21st century facist idealogy a lot better. One can also discuss the divergence as well, and I think in the end of that, you'll have a problem. If you meet a second generation holocaust survivor in for example New York, you would never convince him. The reason is the word "Nazi" blocks his mind completely. Maybe that's my problem too.

One can discuss the tenets of Orwells 1984 too, switching Big Brother with George Bush, and Usama bin Laden with Emmanuel Goldstein. Of course the frames of the societies are different, but the essence is very much there. In my case, Animal Farm comes to mind a lot after 9/11. It made a devastating impression on an animal loving kid. When I grew up, I read the book. It's all there too.

I don't go to America anymore. I had a prepaid invitation to a new years party 2002/2003, with the chance to see old places and friends, but I declined. I've been around, and have no illusions that a visa less entry will be smooth. Even our ex prime minster, now head of WHO, was held at JFK recently.

Maybe I'm also hampered by the fact that over here, you can hear the needle drop every time someone compares anything with nazis.

Einordnung, phony war, rights dissappearing, The Leader above it all, yes. Sure.

OK?[;)]

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post #37 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-05-2006, 04:22 PM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

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JimSmith - 2/5/2006 1:34 AM

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NZ Benz - 2/4/2006 8:11 PM
What a bunch of Bull Sh#t!!

You suggest to go back to some type of isolationist policy. The seeping of one culure into antother ha happened sice the start of time. Globialisation is part of the world. I will remind you of the law of comparative advantage. If this is the way you see things then you should dispose of your mercedes because it is German culture taking over American culture. Islamic culture is expanding as well take France for example. The moderates in the Muslim world do nothing to stop the extreemists, the only way to stop them is to become pro active. Muslim extreemists see what is happening as a clash of civilisations and then to combat it then perhaps you should to. Your history lessons are a waste of time when discussing this topic (Dont get me wrong I love history) What matters is the here and now. As you and almost everybody else here is an American I'll use that as example. Bush gets up every morning as he puts it 'thinking of how to make America safe' and I think he does. You have to fight the war today to win tomorrows peace.
Isolationism is not quite the same as "live and let live" and your analogy of a German car taking over American culture is equally poorly supported. Globalization is not some new "Manifest Destiny" or other truth to which all contrary desires must submit.

The blending of cultures is only successful when the ratios and rates are accepted by those cultures being blended. In the present example of Islam and the "West" which is truly already a blend of many, at least one of the cultures is not willing to be over come by the other. The discovery of oil in the Middle East has accelerated the Western interest the area, and with that interest a very rapid infusion of what is apparently perceived as unhealthy values that appeal to their younger generation. They do not actually see Islam seeping into Western culture. And, as of late, such as the incidents in Denmark and the rest of Europe, Islam is being rejected.

When one culture is overrun by another it is hardly "blending" or "seeping" of one into another. Those terms imply a more equal measure of each survives. It is usually perceived as war by the party being overrun. Whatever the rationale for Islam's traditions, like the roles of men and women, it is not the West's job to undo that because it is different than the roles or traditions we have assumed. Our presence to exploit oil reserves there has injected our culture, which is not seeping into theirs. It is eroding the pillars of Islam.

It is simple minded to presume the course we are on is unassailable. At the moment those who lead the believers in Islam see the world converting to Islam as the only satisfactory outcome. Those of us who are presently not convinced Islam is the answer see Islam as ok as long as they keep it over in the Middle East and where ever else it is already accepted. It is much more like the failure of the American Indian and Alaskan Eskimo cultures to be assimilated in any reasonable fashion into the Western culture. Those cultures are dead. Yes we have memorials and pictures and groups of people gathered here and there with DNA that can be traced to the original American Indians and Eskimos who make trinkets for sale to tourists, but the actual cultures are dead. I am not convinced Islam is going down for the count with firewater and gambling. And we are not quite ready to succumb to terror from Islamists. Yet. Although the pledge not to negotiate with them seems to have been broken. We are now ready to give up freedom of the press, and freedom of speech without anything in return.

I think Bush worries about being exposed by another loose end by another crony in another job in the White House or his administration. America's well being comes long after his ego, his Party and the control of perceptions. This is not necessarily unique to Bush and Republicans, it seems to be a consequence of the two Party system, and the Republicans have been in power for quite some time now, so their power grabbing abuses are there to be reported. Jim
Well I see someone has been studying Turners frontier Thesis. Islam is ok as long as It stays in the middle east etc. Well its not staying there its spreading just like it did hundreds of years ago into eastern Europe. Remember that TV show 'Pope Town' Did catholics become violent in the street and burn buildings, sure there was outcry but not at the level that we are seeing at the moment. Remember the book the 'satanic verses' Extreemist Muslims are some of the most intolerant people on the planet, you choose to take an attitude of appeasment that your choice but quite frankly it won't work. As for giving up freedom of the press why dont you go ask the clerics about which cartoons in their mind you can and cannot publish. The only constant in the world is change, one culture will always go into decline over another, there will always be reactionary forces on both sides . So in short if they dont want Mc Donalds, Starbucks , Gap or whatever the hell else they see as negetive infulences over there then they wont buy it. There was latent demand for what the West was offering and now their consuming big wow, and if we in the west wanted strict religion and female circumcison we would buy into that, but by and large we dont. So as far as Muslims and their sensitivities to the west go, get over it.
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post #38 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-05-2006, 04:47 PM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

I guess you can get away with anything without question behind the guise of patriotism. Sad. Cannot even discuss other possibilities without hyperbole and imaginary, until made real, lines being drawn. The lack of genuine education in this country will be the largest downfall.
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post #39 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-05-2006, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

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Shane - 2/5/2006 6:47 PM

I guess you can get away with anything without question behind the guise of patriotism. Sad. Cannot even discuss other possibilities without hyperbole and imaginary, until made real, lines being drawn. The lack of genuine education in this country will be the largest downfall.
Please explain to me how not agreeing with you is the same as being uneducated.

Thank you,

Bot
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post #40 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-05-2006, 08:15 PM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

Quote:
Botnst - 2/5/2006 8:13 PM

Quote:
Shane - 2/5/2006 6:47 PM

I guess you can get away with anything without question behind the guise of patriotism. Sad. Cannot even discuss other possibilities without hyperbole and imaginary, until made real, lines being drawn. The lack of genuine education in this country will be the largest downfall.
Please explain to me how not agreeing with you is the same as being uneducated.

Thank you,

Bot
Clearly you are too uneducated to understand. It can not be explained to someone of your level. Please move to ************ (I would tell you where but then I would have to kill you. Can't have the unwashed like yourself finding out) utopian society for your proper indoctrination.
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