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post #11 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-04-2006, 03:53 PM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

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JimSmith - 2/4/2006 5:30 PM

Ultimately the only people who can influence the response of the Muslim world to any stimulus from inside and outside their world is Muslims. Those rational ones need to do what it takes to wrest the steering wheel away from the frantic ones who have it, and appeasing them as they run down innocents is merely giving in to them, or, negotiating away essential elements of our Western culture, such as freedom of the press, to terrorists without actually getting anything back.

And, while many don't actually see Bush as a Nazi, yet, denying a pattern of trampling on the Bill of Rights, taking the law into his own hands, invading other countries under false pretenses, imprisoning people and suggesting they have no rights as humans, redefining the definition of torture as a means to an ends, and much more is a choice you can make for your reasons, whatever they may be. Hitler did not come into power on a platform of gassing Jews. Or starting WWII. Or any of the many of the aspects of Nazism that you find so appalling. He did that slowly. Manipulating facts, circumstances and human emotions. No one in Germany was proud of what they did and all of them would have told you when they realized it it was too late. Be careful you are not one of those. The pattern is there. Frank made it clear a mindset of "It can't happen here" only makes it more assured that it will, regardless of what "it" is. Jim



There isn't even the slightest parallel between Hitler and the President of the United States. So quit running with it. This thread is about the real phenomena of Islamic fascists. They are out to subjugate the world. They are out to exterminate anyone that doesn't agree with them.
It’s really irritating when people take extremist political rhetoric and actually start believing it. The US, as flawed as it is, is a beacon of freedom and opportunity for the world.
And GWB, as much as some may rightfully disagree with him, is not a villain.





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post #12 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-04-2006, 04:13 PM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

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JimSmith - 2/4/2006 5:30 PM
Those rational ones need to do what it takes to wrest the steering wheel away from the frantic ones who have it, and appeasing them as they run down innocents is merely giving in to them, or, negotiating away essential elements of our Western culture..
Jim, this is precisely the task at hand in the United States, yet none of the "rational ones" are having any luck at wresting the steering wheel from the fanatics.

So, if it can't happen here, with all of our vaunted freedoms (at least those that remain), how on earth is it going to happen in the countries without our democratic traditions?

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post #13 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-04-2006, 04:27 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

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Marsden - 2/4/2006 6:13 PM

Quote:
JimSmith - 2/4/2006 5:30 PM
Those rational ones need to do what it takes to wrest the steering wheel away from the frantic ones who have it, and appeasing them as they run down innocents is merely giving in to them, or, negotiating away essential elements of our Western culture..
Jim, this is precisely the task at hand in the United States, yet none of the "rational ones" are having any luck at wresting the steering wheel from the fanatics.

So, if it can't happen here, with all of our vaunted freedoms (at least those that remain), how on earth is it going to happen in the countries without our democratic traditions?
I completely agree. Those Nazi bastards keep getting elected despite us knowing what is best for the Nation. I suggest we have a coup de etat and run this place like we know it ought be run.

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post #14 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-04-2006, 04:28 PM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

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Marsden - 2/4/2006 6:13 PM
Jim, this is precisely the task at hand in the United States, yet none of the "rational ones" are having any luck at wresting the steering wheel from the fanatics.

So, if it can't happen here, with all of our vaunted freedoms (at least those that remain), how on earth is it going to happen in the countries without our democratic traditions?
We are advantaged in this situation, for the moment anyway, by our history of eventually doing the "right thing" and the formality of our routine of changing the guard in early November, at all levels of our government in phases each year. But you have a point. There are those who don't really value what we have and are all too willing to trade it away for things with no relative value. Enough of that and we could find ourselves moaning our prayers in unison across the country while we gas those who are not "with us" because they must be "against us" and then pontificate about how unlike the Nazis we are. Jim
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post #15 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-04-2006, 04:37 PM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

In all due respect, Mr. Smith, I think your perception of Islam is somewhat limited.

"Ultimately the only people who can influence the response of the Muslim world to any stimulus from inside and outside their world is Muslims."

So you mean it doesn't matter at all how we, the West, handle this crisis?

"Those rational ones need to do what it takes to wrest the steering wheel away from the frantic ones who have it"

That's not how it works. Why risk being an outcast, for the sake of the West? Or get killed?

Concerning Bush, I see where you're going. But calling him a nazional sozialist is counterproductive, you know, a bit over the hill. He is not. I don't like him either, but a nazi, no.

I remember the last election very well. There was some talk of some counting mischief in Florida and such, but I can't recall any SA brownshirt guys running around and beating up political opponents. And the question of Sion and the Jews were very much in the open.

If Bush has in fact done anything illegal, it will catch up to him, sooner or later. That would be the America I know.

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post #16 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-04-2006, 04:41 PM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

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JimSmith - 2/4/2006 6:28 PM

We are advantaged in this situation, for the moment anyway, by our history of eventually doing the "right thing" and the formality of our routine of changing the guard in early November, at all levels of our government in phases each year.
Jim, I'm glad you remain hopeful. But consider a few things. First of all, congressional districts have been gerrymandered as never before, so that few are actually competitive. Then, Supreme Court appointments are for life. Finally, the current Administration has shown no compunction whatever when it comes to dismissing the various pillars of our democratic society for the sake of political advantage.

Separately, there is the manufactured war which serves any and all political purposes at home, providing the people keep believing the lies they're told. And which, of course, lends itself neatly to another classic National Socialist analogy:

-----------------------------

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?

Naturally the common people don't want war ...That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." (Hermann Goering)


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post #17 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-04-2006, 04:56 PM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

Quote:
NordStern - 2/4/2006 6:37 PM

In all due respect, Mr. Smith, I think your perception of Islam is somewhat limited.

"Ultimately the only people who can influence the response of the Muslim world to any stimulus from inside and outside their world is Muslims."

So you mean it doesn't matter at all how we, the West, handle this crisis?

"Those rational ones need to do what it takes to wrest the steering wheel away from the frantic ones who have it"

That's not how it works. Why risk being an outcast, for the sake of the West? Or get killed?

Concerning Bush, I see where you're going. But calling him a nazional sozialist is counterproductive, you know, a bit over the hill. He is not. I don't like him either, but a nazi, no.

I remember the last election very well. There was some talk of some counting mischief in Florida and such, but I can't recall any SA brownshirt guys running around and beating up political opponents. And the question of Sion and the Jews were very much in the open.

If Bush has in fact done anything illegal, it will catch up to him, sooner or later. That would be the America I know.
You are correct. My knowledge of the world of Islam is limited to contact with individuals from that area who are somehow able to also manage being American citizens.

A brief review of history would suggest, however, that outside influences have very limited effect. Negligible in fact, unless you are a victim, of course. We have no business influencing them, or, for that matter, insulting them. However, at the core of what apparently I am not alone in being unable to understand, is the concept that unconstrained hostile responses to insults, that can go on for hundreds of generations, is not discouraged by those in charge.

In fact, it seems to me one of the most heinous crimes we commit daily, is the seeping of our culture into theirs. This I can actually understand, and think we should be very careful to avoid. Westernization of Islam is viewed as an assault on their culture by those devoted to preserving it. Much like we view the terrorists as only interested in eliminating us.

The key to this issue is to disengage. Our money, their oil, our financial institutions their culture, all need to be prevented from interacting in an interdependent way. Western culture is not for everyone. The American Indian didn't take to it, neither do the Alaskan natives.

We need to get out of their affairs. It is the quickest and most effective way to stop assaulting their culture, across the board, without compromising our way of life. No need to make caricatures of Islamic institutions if they are not interacting with our culture in a threatening way.

Withdrawing from their culture is by no means a suggestion that they are somehow inferior. Just different enough that coexisting with our differences out in the open, in the same space, won't work. There is something to be said about their cautious rate of accepting technology as opposed to our addiction to the changes that come from our devotion to technology. They have survived much longer than we Americans, and in much more difficult situations. It is not that hard to understand why those charged with preserving their culture, and those indoctrinated in its teachings, find abandoning them and adopting ours so offensive. Jim
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post #18 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-04-2006, 06:02 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

Outside influences have little effect?

Tell that to: The Gauls, the Carthaginians; the Mayans; Samarkanians; The American Indians; the Germans; and the Japanese.

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post #19 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-04-2006, 06:10 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

Quote:
chiphomme - 2/4/2006 5:53 PM

Quote:
JimSmith - 2/4/2006 5:30 PM

Ultimately the only people who can influence the response of the Muslim world to any stimulus from inside and outside their world is Muslims. Those rational ones need to do what it takes to wrest the steering wheel away from the frantic ones who have it, and appeasing them as they run down innocents is merely giving in to them, or, negotiating away essential elements of our Western culture, such as freedom of the press, to terrorists without actually getting anything back.

And, while many don't actually see Bush as a Nazi, yet, denying a pattern of trampling on the Bill of Rights, taking the law into his own hands, invading other countries under false pretenses, imprisoning people and suggesting they have no rights as humans, redefining the definition of torture as a means to an ends, and much more is a choice you can make for your reasons, whatever they may be. Hitler did not come into power on a platform of gassing Jews. Or starting WWII. Or any of the many of the aspects of Nazism that you find so appalling. He did that slowly. Manipulating facts, circumstances and human emotions. No one in Germany was proud of what they did and all of them would have told you when they realized it it was too late. Be careful you are not one of those. The pattern is there. Frank made it clear a mindset of "It can't happen here" only makes it more assured that it will, regardless of what "it" is. Jim



There isn't even the slightest parallel between Hitler and the President of the United States. So quit running with it. This thread is about the real phenomena of Islamic fascists. They are out to subjugate the world. They are out to exterminate anyone that doesn't agree with them.
It’s really irritating when people take extremist political rhetoric and actually start believing it. The US, as flawed as it is, is a beacon of freedom and opportunity for the world.
And GWB, as much as some may rightfully disagree with him, is not a villain.
Merkel likens Iran threat to Nazi era
Sat Feb 4, 2006 1:26 PM ET

By Noah Barkin and Louis Charbonneau

MUNICH, Germany (Reuters) - German Chancellor Angela Merkel likened Iran's nuclear plans on Saturday to the threat posed by the Nazis in their early days, as top U.S. officials urged a tough line to stop Tehran from making an atomic bomb.

U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld accused the Islamic republic of being the world's leading sponsor of terrorism, a charge his Iranian counterpart rejected as "ridiculous" and "outrageous".

Addressing the annual Munich security conference, Merkel said countries around the world had underestimated the Nazi threat as Adolf Hitler rose to power.

"Looking back to German history in the early 1930s when National Socialism (Nazism) was on the rise, there were many outside Germany who said 'It's only rhetoric -- don't get excited'," she told the assembled world defense policy makers.

"There were times when people could have reacted differently and, in my view, Germany is obliged to do something at the early stages ... We want to, we must prevent Iran from developing its nuclear program."

As she was speaking a few hundred metres (yards) from the Munich pub where Hitler launched his "Beer Hall Putsch" in 1923, the board of governors of the U.N.'s International Atomic Energy Agency voted in Vienna to report Iran to the U.N. Security Council over concerns it is secretly trying to develop nuclear weapons.

Iran says its nuclear program is purely aimed at civilian energy production.

But Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has compounded concerns in the West and elsewhere with recent comments denying that the Nazi Holocaust happened and calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map".

Post-war Germany, conscious of the Nazis' crimes, has made support for Israel a pillar of its foreign policy and Merkel said her country could not tolerate Ahmadinejad's stance.

SENATORS JOIN ATTACK

U.S. Senator Joseph Lieberman applauded Merkel and urged the world to take the Iranians seriously.

"From the writings of Hitler during the 1930s and Mein Kampf to the polemics of bin Laden in the 1990s, there is ample evidence that sometimes when people write and say that they hate you and ... they want to destroy you, in fact they mean it and will try," he said.

His Republican colleague John McCain said economic sanctions should be imposed on Iran even if that meant bypassing the United Nations. He said military action must also remain an option if Tehran does not bow to international demands to halt its nuclear activities.

Rumsfeld described Iran's Islamic leaders as extremely dangerous and said they could not be permitted to acquire the world's deadliest weapons.

"The Iranian regime is today the world's leading state sponsor of terrorism," Rumsfeld said. "The world does not want, and must work together to prevent, a nuclear Iran."

But both he and Merkel were more measured than McCain, making clear that diplomacy was the best option.

"Diplomatic avenues need to be exhausted. We need to hold our nerve, go step by step," Merkel said.

Immediately after the vote in Vienna, a senior Iranian official announced Iran would immediately curb U.N. inspections of its nuclear plants and pursue full-scale uranium enrichment -- a step that could give it the ability to build the bomb.

U.S. and EU leaders, aware that Russia, China and developing states on the IAEA board want to avoid a showdown with Iran, the world's No. 4 oil exporter, have said that reporting Tehran to the Council will not end diplomacy or trigger early sanctions.

(Additional reporting by Mark John, Thomas Krumenacker, Michael Able, Sabine Siebold)
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post #20 of 64 (permalink) Old 02-04-2006, 06:11 PM
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RE: Fatwah this -- warning: will cause eternal damnation

Quote:
JimSmith - 2/4/2006 6:56 PM

Quote:
NordStern - 2/4/2006 6:37 PM

In all due respect, Mr. Smith, I think your perception of Islam is somewhat limited.

"Ultimately the only people who can influence the response of the Muslim world to any stimulus from inside and outside their world is Muslims."

So you mean it doesn't matter at all how we, the West, handle this crisis?

"Those rational ones need to do what it takes to wrest the steering wheel away from the frantic ones who have it"

That's not how it works. Why risk being an outcast, for the sake of the West? Or get killed?

Concerning Bush, I see where you're going. But calling him a nazional sozialist is counterproductive, you know, a bit over the hill. He is not. I don't like him either, but a nazi, no.

I remember the last election very well. There was some talk of some counting mischief in Florida and such, but I can't recall any SA brownshirt guys running around and beating up political opponents. And the question of Sion and the Jews were very much in the open.

If Bush has in fact done anything illegal, it will catch up to him, sooner or later. That would be the America I know.
You are correct. My knowledge of the world of Islam is limited to contact with individuals from that area who are somehow able to also manage being American citizens.

A brief review of history would suggest, however, that outside influences have very limited effect. Negligible in fact, unless you are a victim, of course. We have no business influencing them, or, for that matter, insulting them. However, at the core of what apparently I am not alone in being unable to understand, is the concept that unconstrained hostile responses to insults, that can go on for hundreds of generations, is not discouraged by those in charge.

In fact, it seems to me one of the most heinous crimes we commit daily, is the seeping of our culture into theirs. This I can actually understand, and think we should be very careful to avoid. Westernization of Islam is viewed as an assault on their culture by those devoted to preserving it. Much like we view the terrorists as only interested in eliminating us.

The key to this issue is to disengage. Our money, their oil, our financial institutions their culture, all need to be prevented from interacting in an interdependent way. Western culture is not for everyone. The American Indian didn't take to it, neither do the Alaskan natives.

We need to get out of their affairs. It is the quickest and most effective way to stop assaulting their culture, across the board, without compromising our way of life. No need to make caricatures of Islamic institutions if they are not interacting with our culture in a threatening way.

Withdrawing from their culture is by no means a suggestion that they are somehow inferior. Just different enough that coexisting with our differences out in the open, in the same space, won't work. There is something to be said about their cautious rate of accepting technology as opposed to our addiction to the changes that come from our devotion to technology. They have survived much longer than we Americans, and in much more difficult situations. It is not that hard to understand why those charged with preserving their culture, and those indoctrinated in its teachings, find abandoning them and adopting ours so offensive. Jim
What a bunch of Bull Sh#t!!

You suggest to go back to some type of isolationist policy. The seeping of one culure into antother ha happened sice the start of time. Globialisation is part of the world. I will remind you of the law of comparative advantage. If this is the way you see things then you should dispose of your mercedes because it is German culture taking over American culture. Islamic culture is expanding as well take France for example. The moderates in the Muslim world do nothing to stop the extreemists, the only way to stop them is to become pro active. Muslim extreemists see what is happening as a clash of civilisations and then to combat it then perhaps you should to. Your history lessons are a waste of time when discussing this topic (Dont get me wrong I love history) What matters is the here and now. As you and almost everybody else here is an American I'll use that as example. Bush gets up every morning as he puts it 'thinking of how to make America safe' and I think he does. You have to fight the war today to win tomorrows peace.
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