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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-29-2005, 03:18 PM
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RE: Secret court modified Bush Wiretap Requests

Couple of questions. (i) What is Bush's motivation here - what is gained? (ii) Does the Constitution apply to immigrants who are not yet citizens? Thanks.
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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-29-2005, 03:23 PM
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RE: Secret court modified Bush Wiretap Requests

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Botnst - 12/28/2005 9:50 AM
Good questions and no rhetorical flourishes.
What's that? No rhetorical flourishes?

I want no part of this "no rhetorical flourishes" of yours [:p]
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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-29-2005, 03:46 PM
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RE: Secret court modified Bush Wiretap Requests

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jjl - 12/29/2005 5:18 PM

Couple of questions. (i) What is Bush's motivation here - what is gained? (ii) Does the Constitution apply to immigrants who are not yet citizens? Thanks.
The Constitution only applies to "Naturally born or naturalized citizens of the United States". Aliens (and unborn babies) outside that purview are essentially excluded from all constitutional protection and are considered the property of the Executive Branch, who can pretty much do with them as they wish. An alien in the US who calls an alien outside the US would have no court protection and would be unable to assert the right to court protection if he was prosecuted. The US Constitution is a little bit paranoid - it considers all people outside of those two classes of people "the enemy", and gives the President the sole right to make all decisions on how we as a country react with the outside world. The document really views the country as an exclusive club that one gains membership to by birth or special grant. Only they get full protection of the Bill Rights. The Padilla case, illegal aliens flooding the country, illegal wars created by lies to Congress, all of these are a war by the Bushes against the Constitution. Despite what these men say, they hate it, and wish to shred it, like they have done to the Atlantic Alliance, the Geneva Convention, and the Nuremburg Protocols. They are FASCISTS.

The ACLU claims what Bush has to gain is the right to spy on political opponents, since no court will be around to look at what he is doing, he can tap into Nancy Pelosi's phone, or perhaps the Special Prosecutor who is currently doing up Mr Libby. What's to stop him? He can claim anything and get away with it, and no one can demand to look at what he is doing because its all "secret war on terror stuff". Knowing what a bunch of backstabbing sons of bitches, via the Plame Case, just for starters, these men are, what else would this crime syndicate be doing?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-29-2005, 03:46 PM
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RE: Secret court modified Bush Wiretap Requests

Quote:
jjl - 12/29/2005 5:18 PM

Couple of questions. (i) What is Bush's motivation here - what is gained? (ii) Does the Constitution apply to immigrants who are not yet citizens? Thanks.
i. According to the Administration, the trade-off is for improved security. They claim (and polls seem to back their claim) that America is more than ready to cede some freedom for increased security.

ii) The Constitution itself is mute on the rights of aliens, legal or otehrwise. The legal code is convoluted as hell and is the subject of ceaseless argument and the source of interminable appeals by aliens concerning every aspect of tehir status.

ii sub a) Precedent indicates that in time of war, presidential powers increase as the role of commander in chief of the armed forces plays a dominant role. Thus, Roosevelt's internment of American citizens of Japanese descent without trial was upheld during WWII. I don't know whether that ruling was ever reversed.

ii sub b) since Congress did not formally declare a state of war but did authorized the President to use whatever means he felt necessary against Iraq, the degree to which the President can lay claim to the broad discretionary powers of a wartime president is weak (IMO).
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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-29-2005, 06:29 PM
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RE: Secret court modified Bush Wiretap Requests

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Botnst - 12/29/2005 5:46 PM
According to the Administration, the trade-off is for improved security. They claim (and polls seem to back their claim) that America is more than ready to cede some freedom for increased security.
Americans are happy to trade in their freedoms because they're fat, happy, and stupid. The "increased security" is a temporary illusion. Or delusion you might say.

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Precedent indicates that in time of war, presidential powers increase as the role of commander in chief of the armed forces plays a dominant role.
Hence the "Endless War" which dovetails so neatly with the first point.
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post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-29-2005, 06:33 PM
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RE: Secret court modified Bush Wiretap Requests

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Marsden - 12/29/2005 8:29 PM

Americans are happy to trade in their freedoms because they're fat, happy, and stupid.
Speaks for himself, only.

B
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post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-29-2005, 06:37 PM
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RE: Secret court modified Bush Wiretap Requests

Oh, I meant to add "SUV-driving"
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post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-29-2005, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Secret court modified Bush Wiretap Requests

SUV's are very handy vehicles.
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post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-29-2005, 11:50 PM
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RE: Secret court modified Bush Wiretap Requests

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430 - 12/29/2005 10:03 PM

SUV's are very handy vehicles.
except when it comes to getting gas milage.
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post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-30-2005, 06:24 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Secret court modified Bush Wiretap Requests

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Ammonium - 12/30/2005 1:50 AM

Quote:
430 - 12/29/2005 10:03 PM

SUV's are very handy vehicles.
except when it comes to getting gas milage.
If I was concerned about gas mileage I would not drive an MB & a BMW. Gas Mileage is pretty much at the bottom of my list when shopping for a car.
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