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post #41 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-29-2005, 02:39 PM Thread Starter
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RE: No Free Speech in U.S.

Hey! Your edit makes my post look argumentative at best!

Oh well.
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post #42 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-29-2005, 04:14 PM
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RE: No Free Speech in U.S.

kvining - 12/29/2005 4:23 PM

The "limits" to the First Amendment are very, very few my friend...

... some 70 years of case law has occurred since your quote of Mr. Holmes, whose reasoning has been for the most part shredded. For years porn was banned on the reasoning it caused rape, using Holmes reasoning. Subsequent courts have found that "The Holmes Test" invalid, since it is subjective in the extreme, and makes no sense.
Good attempt, bad result. In the field of debate, it takes more than opinion to win a point of argument. What support have you offered here? If you research, you will find "clear and present" is still valid.

I invite you to navigate to and research further... Annotations as to freedoms of speech are there, along with some further information as tothe roll of government as an educator and limits of free speech thereof... Too much to copy/paste here...

And you are correct, Mason is a VA commonwealth institution, which means anyone on its campus must submit to the authority present, or petition otherwise...

This has been fun! Nothing like reading pages of law annotations to pass the day!

RM Smith

Where is it again that we are going... And why are we in a handbasket?
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post #43 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-29-2005, 04:24 PM
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RE: No Free Speech in U.S.

Here is another example of universities preventing free speech on campus.

DePaul Forbids Student Group to Protest Ward Churchill
Illinois University’s War on Free Speech Continues
December 21, 2005

FIRE Press Release

CHICAGO, December 21, 2005—A student group that protested a campus appearance by University of Colorado Professor Ward Churchill has become DePaul University’s latest victim of censorship. The Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) intervened after the university banned its College Republicans from posting flyers protesting Churchill’s visit and actually changed its own rules to prevent the organization from attending a workshop that he would be leading.

“Just as DePaul was free to invite Ward Churchill to speak, so should its students be free to object to that invitation,� said FIRE Director of Legal and Public Advocacy Greg Lukianoff. “DePaul’s president boasts of the university’s commitment to academic freedom and free speech, but actions speak louder than words.�

Churchill, who made news earlier this year for describing victims of the September 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center as “little Eichmanns,� was scheduled to lecture and lead a workshop for student groups on October 20 and 21. In protest, DePaul’s College Republicans (CRs) printed flyers that quoted some of Churchill’s controversial remarks. DePaul’s Office of Student Life banned the CRs from posting the flyers, citing a remarkably vague policy prohibiting “propaganda.� The CRs, understandably confused as to how quoting a speaker’s own words could be “propaganda,� put up some flyers anyway, leading to a formal warning from DePaul.

DePaul’s Cultural Center went even further by actually changing the attendance requirements for the Churchill-led “Multicultural Human Rights Education Workshop� to exclude the CRs. Although the event was initially advertised as open to “student organizations,� after the CRs expressed interest in attending, the Cultural Center altered its website to limit the event to “Student Organizations which are supported by the Cultural Center’s Allocation Fund,� which the CRs are not.

On November 23, FIRE wrote to DePaul President Dennis Holtschneider to protest the university’s actions, urging the Catholic institution to reject “policies that place students’ individual rights and personal integrity at the mercy of university officials who are free to censor students at will.� Holtschneider replied on December 12, incorrectly claiming that the word “propaganda� is not part of any policy at DePaul. Nevertheless, he defended DePaul’s policy, insisting that it “is enforced equally for all topics and positions. Advertisements of speakers are posted. Denunciations of speakers are not posted.� Yet FIRE’s research shows that the policy was amended to reflect this only after the College Republicans’ flyers were denied approval.

“It is immoral for DePaul to expect its students to abide by a policy that is selectively enforced, constantly shifting, and disavowed even by the university’s president,� said Lukianoff. “DePaul’s Orwellian attempts to rewrite history by changing its policies without notice—and then using the changes to retroactively justify repression—are also extremely disturbing.�

This is the second time this year that FIRE has had to intervene at DePaul. In May, Professor Thomas Klocek was suspended without a hearing after engaging in an out-of-class argument with pro-Palestinian students. Klocek is now suing DePaul for the actions the university took against him.

FIRE is a nonprofit educational foundation that unites civil rights and civil liberties leaders, scholars, journalists, and public intellectuals from across the political and ideological spectrum on behalf of individual rights, due process, freedom of expression, academic freedom, and rights of conscience at our nation’s colleges and universities. FIRE’s efforts to preserve liberty at DePaul University can be viewed at
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post #44 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-29-2005, 04:26 PM
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RE: No Free Speech in U.S.

kvining - 12/29/2005 5:23 PM

Ears - 12/28/2005 6:21 PM

While everyne is decrying what happened as an infringement of his right to free speech, and violation of his civil rights, I have but one question... Was he on private land?

Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins! You come into my house and start speechifying against me and my beliefs, etc and you're gonna face dire consequences. Now, if he was on public land...

Free speech has its limits, whether you think so or not. The framers of our constitution tried to protect us against undue censorship, but their intent was not to allow anyone to say whatever he wanted, wherever he wanted. Maybe you do have the "right " to yell, "c***sucker" in the middle of a church service... That does not make it proper use of free speech. Perhaps you think you have the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre? The exercise of free speech comes with consequences, and great responsibility. I encourage anyone to practice it, but realize the responsibility and consequences there of...

I applaud the young Khan for standing his ground; however, I chock it up to the wrong execution of the right idea.

Flame on!
"George Mason University is Virginia state institution"


The "limits" to the First Amendment are very, very few my friend. It is the First Amendment for a reason, and a freedom held most dear and precious by all the Founders. The person was on public property. he had every right to say what he had to say, which is why the prosecuters dropped it like a hot potato, knowing full well that if it did, it meant that the University was going to get it's ass sued of by the ACLU. They had no choice. The amendment is simple, absolute, and concise:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

There are no IFS ANDS BUTS or MAYBES in there. You may also want to research a little further, and you find out some 70 years of case law has occurred since your quote of Mr. Holmes, whose reasoning has been for the most part shredded. For years porn was banned on the reasoning it caused rape, using Holmes reasoning. Subsequent courts have found that "The Holmes Test" invalid, since it is subjective in the extreme, and makes no sense.
Hate to dissapoint you but here is an article listing several court cases where freedom of speech was limited by the courts.

7th Circuit Greenlights University Censorship
Censorship is not just for high school students anymore. Still reeling from the Supreme Court's 1998 Hazelwood decision that severely restricted high school journalists' 1st amendment rights, young journalists--particularly young activist journalists--now have another strike against them in the form of the 7th Circuit Court decision, Hosty v. Carter, covered in this week's Village Voice.

It seems the grad and undergrad student journalists of the student newspaper, The Innovator, at Governors State University in Illinois ran afoul of Governors' Dean Patricia Carter who didn't like the paper's critical stories about some of the school's more "lackluster professors," stopped a press run of the paper by the school's printer, and furthermore told the printer that she wanted to "review" each issue of the paper BEFORE it went to press.

The students took their campus to court, and while their rights were upheld in district court, the appelate court has now agreed in a 7-4 decision that college administrators have the right to censor campus publications. It's unclear whether there will be any attempt by student advocates to take the case to the Supreme Court.

One assumes this applies primarily to official campus publications using campus resources, and not an independent campus press outlet that raises its own funds and uses its own printers, but even so, the Hosty decision is a grievous blow freedom of speech on campus at precisely the moment in history when it will likely be most needed.

Here is Massachusetts, with our many, many colleges and universities, student activist journalists should be on the lookout for administrators seeking "prior review" of their publications. College students who feel they are targets of campus censorship should contact the Student Press Law Center, and of course, the former campus journalists here at Massachusetts Global Action
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