Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens? - Page 9 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

View Poll Results: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?
Yes 16 35.56%
No 29 64.44%
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post #81 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-22-2005, 07:26 AM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

I don't suppose that Padilla can sue GW and Ashcroft personally. I'd laugh my arse off if he bankrupted both of them. Hell, three years in solitary confinement and all the government has to offer up is a big "ooops". That ought to be worth some serious cashola.

Bot, you don't think the government got away with holding a U.S. citizen without filing charges for three years? Tell that to Jose Padilla.

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post #82 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-22-2005, 07:36 AM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 11:14 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/21/2005 7:48 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 7:29 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/21/2005 6:59 PM

Quote:
Nutz 4 Benz - 12/21/2005 6:50 PM

Quote:
guage (forrest) said- 12/20/2005 8:30

Every American citizen is entitled to their opinion regarding "giving" up a little bit of freedom for the greater good.

Maybe this man's opinion is worth something!?

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

Benjamin Franklin

Could be his blood is more red than yours too![^]
He da man.....

I'm a little confused by your interest in American civil liberties. Are you an American? And are you in the US? The coordinates in your profile are Saudi, right?




Why not have interest in the history of the civil liberties of the country that's about to take over the world? I want to learn so I can become a good and knowldegeable collaborator... What's wrong with that? Don't you want the future rulers of your extended empire to replicate you in every way?

Ps. Jokes aside I have respect for your fouding fathers, they were visonaries with no need for Fox or CNN to tell them about what works and what does not... That's the magic of Ben Franklin and others, yes they are my heros, but not as much as John Wayne....


So how are civil liberties on the Arabian Peninsula?
The last time I checked my properties are in no danger of emminent domain...
on the other hand yes there are issues with women rights but overall, the model we have works fine for the culture we have. You see Chip, it's not a size that fits all. Here in Saudi I am willing to let go some liberties like drinking in public so I can spare myself the embrassment of dragging my ass in some alley and puking away while making a scene. In addition I am happy to say I can leave my 600S AMG out on the street with the engine running and not worry that it will be lifted for a joy ride, a parts chop chop or be shipped to Nigeria...
Yes we live a somewhat restrictive live but in return we have relative security and respect for property. It's not perfect nor idealistic like what your founding fathers had in mind. My point is this, if your country is asuming itself as the world leader then it is assuming leadership over my people's future as well. So hell yeah I want to know what kind of "new" regime I am going to be under and how should I play the game so I and my kids don't end up being your slaves out of sheer ignorance...
Oh, the last time I checked, right now in my country technically YOU have more liberties than I do, yes in my own country so you tell me what's wrong with that picture?
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post #83 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-22-2005, 07:40 AM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
GermanStar - 12/22/2005 9:26 AM

I don't suppose that Padilla can sue GW and Ashcroft personally. I'd laugh my arse off if he bankrupted both of them. Hell, three years in solitary confinement and all the government has to offer up is a big "ooops". That ought to be worth some serious cashola.

Bot, you don't think the government got away with holding a U.S. citizen without filing charges for three years? Tell that to Jose Padilla.
Like I said, I wouldn't characterize it in that way.

The Executive's primary duty is to protect and defend us against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Secondarily, it's duty is everything else. All rights and privileges are therefore of secondary importance to the Executive. And this is why we have a system of checks and balances.

The Judiciary and Congress offer protection from Executive over-extension. The Judiciary, by reminding the Exec of its secondary responsibilities. The Congress, by enacting legislation circumscribing Executive power.

There is no hard, black line that defines these roles. Instead, there is fluidity of understanding as new circumstances reveal themselves.

The Exec followed what it believed to be accepted law and precedent in holding an enemy combatant. It argued that Padilla's status as enemy combatant was more important than Padilla's status as a citizen. The Executive and Padilla argued over this for 3 years. The Executive finally lost in court and now has to treat Padilla as a citizen firsta nd combatant, second.

This legally reduced the Executive's power. How can that be bad?

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post #84 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-22-2005, 08:35 AM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
guage - 12/21/2005 8:35 PM

My opinion is that is backwards.
THAT is the problem, guage! Unfortunately there is a large number of other Americans that agree with you.

I'll side with Ben Franklin. You can go ahead and completely disagree with him. I'd rather live in the country he worked to establish instead of tearing it down like you though.
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post #85 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-22-2005, 09:01 AM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

We all have opinions and I can voice mine
just as soft or as loud as the next guy.



post #86 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-22-2005, 09:03 AM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
Shabah - 12/22/2005 9:36 AM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 11:14 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/21/2005 7:48 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 7:29 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/21/2005 6:59 PM

Quote:
Nutz 4 Benz - 12/21/2005 6:50 PM

Quote:
guage (forrest) said- 12/20/2005 8:30

Every American citizen is entitled to their opinion regarding "giving" up a little bit of freedom for the greater good.

Maybe this man's opinion is worth something!?

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

Benjamin Franklin

Could be his blood is more red than yours too![^]
He da man.....

I'm a little confused by your interest in American civil liberties. Are you an American? And are you in the US? The coordinates in your profile are Saudi, right?




Why not have interest in the history of the civil liberties of the country that's about to take over the world? I want to learn so I can become a good and knowldegeable collaborator... What's wrong with that? Don't you want the future rulers of your extended empire to replicate you in every way?

Ps. Jokes aside I have respect for your fouding fathers, they were visonaries with no need for Fox or CNN to tell them about what works and what does not... That's the magic of Ben Franklin and others, yes they are my heros, but not as much as John Wayne....


So how are civil liberties on the Arabian Peninsula?
The last time I checked my properties are in no danger of emminent domain...
on the other hand yes there are issues with women rights but overall, the model we have works fine for the culture we have. You see Chip, it's not a size that fits all. Here in Saudi I am willing to let go some liberties like drinking in public so I can spare myself the embrassment of dragging my ass in some alley and puking away while making a scene. In addition I am happy to say I can leave my 600S AMG out on the street with the engine running and not worry that it will be lifted for a joy ride, a parts chop chop or be shipped to Nigeria...
Yes we live a somewhat restrictive live but in return we have relative security and respect for property. It's not perfect nor idealistic like what your founding fathers had in mind. My point is this, if your country is asuming itself as the world leader then it is assuming leadership over my people's future as well. So hell yeah I want to know what kind of "new" regime I am going to be under and how should I play the game so I and my kids don't end up being your slaves out of sheer ignorance...
Oh, the last time I checked, right now in my country technically YOU have more liberties than I do, yes in my own country so you tell me what's wrong with that picture?



Oh please. It is a bit bizarre reading a person rant and rave about civil liberties in the freest country in the world while living in a country run by an oppressive monarchy where hard core religious loons are the norm.

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post #87 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-22-2005, 09:07 AM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/22/2005 11:03 AM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/22/2005 9:36 AM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 11:14 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/21/2005 7:48 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 7:29 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/21/2005 6:59 PM

Quote:
Nutz 4 Benz - 12/21/2005 6:50 PM

Quote:
guage (forrest) said- 12/20/2005 8:30

Every American citizen is entitled to their opinion regarding "giving" up a little bit of freedom for the greater good.

Maybe this man's opinion is worth something!?

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

Benjamin Franklin

Could be his blood is more red than yours too![^]
He da man.....

I'm a little confused by your interest in American civil liberties. Are you an American? And are you in the US? The coordinates in your profile are Saudi, right?




Why not have interest in the history of the civil liberties of the country that's about to take over the world? I want to learn so I can become a good and knowldegeable collaborator... What's wrong with that? Don't you want the future rulers of your extended empire to replicate you in every way?

Ps. Jokes aside I have respect for your fouding fathers, they were visonaries with no need for Fox or CNN to tell them about what works and what does not... That's the magic of Ben Franklin and others, yes they are my heros, but not as much as John Wayne....


So how are civil liberties on the Arabian Peninsula?
The last time I checked my properties are in no danger of emminent domain...
on the other hand yes there are issues with women rights but overall, the model we have works fine for the culture we have. You see Chip, it's not a size that fits all. Here in Saudi I am willing to let go some liberties like drinking in public so I can spare myself the embrassment of dragging my ass in some alley and puking away while making a scene. In addition I am happy to say I can leave my 600S AMG out on the street with the engine running and not worry that it will be lifted for a joy ride, a parts chop chop or be shipped to Nigeria...
Yes we live a somewhat restrictive live but in return we have relative security and respect for property. It's not perfect nor idealistic like what your founding fathers had in mind. My point is this, if your country is asuming itself as the world leader then it is assuming leadership over my people's future as well. So hell yeah I want to know what kind of "new" regime I am going to be under and how should I play the game so I and my kids don't end up being your slaves out of sheer ignorance...
Oh, the last time I checked, right now in my country technically YOU have more liberties than I do, yes in my own country so you tell me what's wrong with that picture?



Oh please. It is a bit bizarre reading a person rant and rave about civil liberties in the freest country in the world while living in a country run by an oppressive monarchy where hard core religious loons are the norm.
So what do you suggest? I should not talk about this subject because I have no rights to your God given liberties?
What are you saying exactly??????
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post #88 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-22-2005, 09:22 AM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
Shabah - 12/22/2005 11:07 AM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/22/2005 11:03 AM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/22/2005 9:36 AM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 11:14 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/21/2005 7:48 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 7:29 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/21/2005 6:59 PM

Quote:
Nutz 4 Benz - 12/21/2005 6:50 PM

Quote:
guage (forrest) said- 12/20/2005 8:30

Every American citizen is entitled to their opinion regarding "giving" up a little bit of freedom for the greater good.

Maybe this man's opinion is worth something!?

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

Benjamin Franklin

Could be his blood is more red than yours too![^]
He da man.....

I'm a little confused by your interest in American civil liberties. Are you an American? And are you in the US? The coordinates in your profile are Saudi, right?




Why not have interest in the history of the civil liberties of the country that's about to take over the world? I want to learn so I can become a good and knowldegeable collaborator... What's wrong with that? Don't you want the future rulers of your extended empire to replicate you in every way?

Ps. Jokes aside I have respect for your fouding fathers, they were visonaries with no need for Fox or CNN to tell them about what works and what does not... That's the magic of Ben Franklin and others, yes they are my heros, but not as much as John Wayne....


So how are civil liberties on the Arabian Peninsula?
The last time I checked my properties are in no danger of emminent domain...
on the other hand yes there are issues with women rights but overall, the model we have works fine for the culture we have. You see Chip, it's not a size that fits all. Here in Saudi I am willing to let go some liberties like drinking in public so I can spare myself the embrassment of dragging my ass in some alley and puking away while making a scene. In addition I am happy to say I can leave my 600S AMG out on the street with the engine running and not worry that it will be lifted for a joy ride, a parts chop chop or be shipped to Nigeria...
Yes we live a somewhat restrictive live but in return we have relative security and respect for property. It's not perfect nor idealistic like what your founding fathers had in mind. My point is this, if your country is asuming itself as the world leader then it is assuming leadership over my people's future as well. So hell yeah I want to know what kind of "new" regime I am going to be under and how should I play the game so I and my kids don't end up being your slaves out of sheer ignorance...
Oh, the last time I checked, right now in my country technically YOU have more liberties than I do, yes in my own country so you tell me what's wrong with that picture?



Oh please. It is a bit bizarre reading a person rant and rave about civil liberties in the freest country in the world while living in a country run by an oppressive monarchy where hard core religious loons are the norm.
So what do you suggest? I should not talk about this subject because I have no rights to your God given liberties?
What are you saying exactly??????

You can do what you want. I just think it's strange that you are preoccupied by my country's internal debate. It seems that it is just an easy opportunity to take pot shots at Bush, not an overall concern with the health of the US.

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post #89 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-22-2005, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 12:53 PM

Quote:
old300D - 12/21/2005 10:37 AM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/20/2005 1:24 AM

Quote:
mzsmbs - 12/21/2005 2:03 AM

Quote:
guage - 12/19/2005 12:30 PM

The IDC data mining has yeilded valuable information on terrorist cells living and working in the US. It is not "unreasonable" for a person or groups having ties to "suspected terrorists or terrorist sympathizers" to be monitored or investigated. If there had been more sharing of information early on or more attention paid when several of the 9/11 terrorists were linked to Al Queida perhaps the WTC /Pentagon attacks could have been avoided.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable search and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or Affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

That's all assuming, of course, that the wiretaps in this case are the same as in any other. But maybe they're not. Maybe there's something different about this surveillance. It could be in its scope.

But I'm guessing -- and this is just a guess -- that the real difference is in the technology of the wiretaps themselves.
How many terrorists have been charged for terrorism and are in jail since 9/11?

There are thousands of dead ones in Iraq and Afghanistan.
How do you know they were terrorists? Were they charged with a crime? Were they tried and convicted on evidence?

Do you need a court of law to decide who is and isn’t a terrorist? Are you that lacking in common sense?
What do you call groups that purposely target buses, schools, and hospitals that don't have the popular support of Iraqis and Afghans?
Freedom fighters?
Foreigners, Taliban and Baathists holdouts that are using violence in Iraq and Afghanistan are terrorists.
The abuse of power is in your own answer. Without an objective third set of eyeballs, the executive branch can call anyone they don't like a "terrorist", in fact, British kings routinely tagged anyone who didn't agree with them "traitors", and it is this practice that directly led to the Bill of Rights and the Fourth Amendment. Bush now assumes the power of a 18th Century British King, and his bootlicks howl in protest when those of us who actually believe in the democratic ideals this country was founded on object to it. What Bush is doing is illegal, and part of his plan of creating a US Presidency modelled on the German Furher. Warrantless searches are Gestapo tactics, not the practice of democratic states. THe people involved in these searches are US CITIZENS ARBITRARILY LABELLED AS TERRORISTS BY THE MASTERS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. Allowing this practice imperils liberty itself, and in effect says the terrorists have won.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #90 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-22-2005, 09:35 AM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/22/2005 11:22 AM


You can do what you want. I just think it's strange that you are preoccupied by my country's internal debate. It seems that it is just an easy opportunity to take pot shots at Bush, not an overall concern with the health of the US.
Of course I can. Why should it be strange when you already accused us of being despots and religious wakos (see your thread above), I mean the least I could do instead of generalizing like you do is to hit back with a little bit of accuracy by picking on your preseident. You don't see me talking about your city council, mayor or governor? I think I have the right to critisize your presedent just like your blanket statement about whatever you think is ruling my land.
Or should this be a taboo reserved for the people that voted him into office? In that case, what's it to you that my king has not been elected by me? Oh I forgot that we are sitting on your own oil, my bad, I should just shut up and comply because we are not as educated as you in matters of humanity... I need to understand my place, I am so so sorry.....
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