Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens? - Page 6 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #51 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-21-2005, 12:45 PM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 12:53 PM

Quote:
old300D - 12/21/2005 10:37 AM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/20/2005 1:24 AM

Quote:
mzsmbs - 12/21/2005 2:03 AM

Quote:
guage - 12/19/2005 12:30 PM

The IDC data mining has yeilded valuable information on terrorist cells living and working in the US. It is not "unreasonable" for a person or groups having ties to "suspected terrorists or terrorist sympathizers" to be monitored or investigated. If there had been more sharing of information early on or more attention paid when several of the 9/11 terrorists were linked to Al Queida perhaps the WTC /Pentagon attacks could have been avoided.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable search and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or Affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

That's all assuming, of course, that the wiretaps in this case are the same as in any other. But maybe they're not. Maybe there's something different about this surveillance. It could be in its scope.

But I'm guessing -- and this is just a guess -- that the real difference is in the technology of the wiretaps themselves.
How many terrorists have been charged for terrorism and are in jail since 9/11?

There are thousands of dead ones in Iraq and Afghanistan.
How do you know they were terrorists? Were they charged with a crime? Were they tried and convicted on evidence?

Do you need a court of law to decide who is and isn’t a terrorist? Are you that lacking in common sense?
What do you call groups that purposely target buses, schools, and hospitals that don't have the popular support of Iraqis and Afghans?
Freedom fighters?
Foreigners, Taliban and Baathists holdouts that are using violence in Iraq and Afghanistan are terrorists.
What common sense are you talking about? If you think that there should be one, then guage would have shot me on sight a long time ago, no judges or juries, just "common sense" because he does not like what I say, what I look like or what I wear.... It's that simple!
You need to define terrorist in the proper context and it must go through some test to pass as such. I think that's what courts are for or am I mistaken?
I can site you some examles of wars where the fighters were called terrorists then after the fight was over they were relabeled freedoom fighters, moujahedeen and so on....
Now back to the thousands killed, a lot were from falling bombs from the skies... Let me give you an example, remeber that wedding party that got wiped out by some jet? Were they terrorists as well because they happened to have been killed by US forces? If so, then you are absolutly right, let them all die and then let history sort through it when all shit settles down....
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post #52 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-21-2005, 01:00 PM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

OK help me out, I am confused. Here is a speech from the President in April 2004: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-2.html

in it he says:
"Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution."

Now he claims that he does not have to go through any channel and not even back track to get a court order after the fact. And he and the Vice President insist that this is all within the constition framework and does not infringe on civil liberties...

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post #53 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-21-2005, 01:03 PM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
Shabah - 12/21/2005 2:45 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 12:53 PM

Quote:
old300D - 12/21/2005 10:37 AM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/20/2005 1:24 AM

Quote:
mzsmbs - 12/21/2005 2:03 AM

Quote:
guage - 12/19/2005 12:30 PM

The IDC data mining has yeilded valuable information on terrorist cells living and working in the US. It is not "unreasonable" for a person or groups having ties to "suspected terrorists or terrorist sympathizers" to be monitored or investigated. If there had been more sharing of information early on or more attention paid when several of the 9/11 terrorists were linked to Al Queida perhaps the WTC /Pentagon attacks could have been avoided.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable search and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or Affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

That's all assuming, of course, that the wiretaps in this case are the same as in any other. But maybe they're not. Maybe there's something different about this surveillance. It could be in its scope.

But I'm guessing -- and this is just a guess -- that the real difference is in the technology of the wiretaps themselves.
How many terrorists have been charged for terrorism and are in jail since 9/11?

There are thousands of dead ones in Iraq and Afghanistan.
How do you know they were terrorists? Were they charged with a crime? Were they tried and convicted on evidence?

Do you need a court of law to decide who is and isn’t a terrorist? Are you that lacking in common sense?
What do you call groups that purposely target buses, schools, and hospitals that don't have the popular support of Iraqis and Afghans?
Freedom fighters?
Foreigners, Taliban and Baathists holdouts that are using violence in Iraq and Afghanistan are terrorists.
What common sense are you talking about? If you think that there should be one, then guage would have shot me on sight a long time ago, no judges or juries, just "common sense" because he does not like what I say, what I look like or what I wear.... It's that simple!
You need to define terrorist in the proper context and it must go through some test to pass as such. I think that's what courts are for or am I mistaken?
I can site you some examles of wars where the fighters were called terrorists then after the fight was over they were relabeled freedoom fighters, moujahedeen and so on....
Now back to the thousands killed, a lot were from falling bombs from the skies... Let me give you an example, remeber that wedding party that got wiped out by some jet? Were they terrorists as well because they happened to have been killed by US forces? If so, then you are absolutly right, let them all die and then let history sort through it when all shit settles down....



Are you actually trying to debate whether thousands of terrorists have been killed? Or are you so blinded by the left wing disease of moral equivalence that you have a tough time telling the differnce between a US soldier and Zarqawi?

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post #54 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-21-2005, 01:15 PM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 3:03 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/21/2005 2:45 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 12:53 PM

Quote:
old300D - 12/21/2005 10:37 AM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/20/2005 1:24 AM

Quote:
mzsmbs - 12/21/2005 2:03 AM

Quote:
guage - 12/19/2005 12:30 PM

The IDC data mining has yeilded valuable information on terrorist cells living and working in the US. It is not "unreasonable" for a person or groups having ties to "suspected terrorists or terrorist sympathizers" to be monitored or investigated. If there had been more sharing of information early on or more attention paid when several of the 9/11 terrorists were linked to Al Queida perhaps the WTC /Pentagon attacks could have been avoided.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable search and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or Affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

That's all assuming, of course, that the wiretaps in this case are the same as in any other. But maybe they're not. Maybe there's something different about this surveillance. It could be in its scope.

But I'm guessing -- and this is just a guess -- that the real difference is in the technology of the wiretaps themselves.
How many terrorists have been charged for terrorism and are in jail since 9/11?

There are thousands of dead ones in Iraq and Afghanistan.
How do you know they were terrorists? Were they charged with a crime? Were they tried and convicted on evidence?

Do you need a court of law to decide who is and isn’t a terrorist? Are you that lacking in common sense?
What do you call groups that purposely target buses, schools, and hospitals that don't have the popular support of Iraqis and Afghans?
Freedom fighters?
Foreigners, Taliban and Baathists holdouts that are using violence in Iraq and Afghanistan are terrorists.
What common sense are you talking about? If you think that there should be one, then guage would have shot me on sight a long time ago, no judges or juries, just "common sense" because he does not like what I say, what I look like or what I wear.... It's that simple!
You need to define terrorist in the proper context and it must go through some test to pass as such. I think that's what courts are for or am I mistaken?
I can site you some examles of wars where the fighters were called terrorists then after the fight was over they were relabeled freedoom fighters, moujahedeen and so on....
Now back to the thousands killed, a lot were from falling bombs from the skies... Let me give you an example, remeber that wedding party that got wiped out by some jet? Were they terrorists as well because they happened to have been killed by US forces? If so, then you are absolutly right, let them all die and then let history sort through it when all shit settles down....



Are you actually trying to debate whether thousands of terrorists have been killed? Or are you so blinded by the left wing disease of moral equivalence that you have a tough time telling the differnce between a US soldier and Zarqawi?
No I have no doubt that Al Zarquawi is a terrorist; as to US soldiers it all depends. The majority are well intentioned but we have seen over and over that some were enjoying themselves while killing anything that pleases them or torturing for whatever sick gratification that they seek. Don't tell me it ain't so... But these soldiers will NEVER be jusdged as terrorists no matter how much terror they bring about.
I also don't have the authrity to judge them but to have an opinion and mine is clear... Technically for some people here and elsewhere in their opinions I am a terrorist as well since I speak up against your administration's ills and of course being from "over there" does not help either. To prove my point, in your opinion, say your NSA has watched this thread as it developed, what are my chances of being denied a visa to come visit you for Christmas? Let's not fool ourselves, there is not a chance in the universe they will let me passed the guards at your embassy....
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post #55 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-21-2005, 01:24 PM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
Shabah - 12/21/2005 3:15 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 3:03 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/21/2005 2:45 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 12:53 PM

Quote:
old300D - 12/21/2005 10:37 AM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/20/2005 1:24 AM

Quote:
mzsmbs - 12/21/2005 2:03 AM

Quote:
guage - 12/19/2005 12:30 PM

The IDC data mining has yeilded valuable information on terrorist cells living and working in the US. It is not "unreasonable" for a person or groups having ties to "suspected terrorists or terrorist sympathizers" to be monitored or investigated. If there had been more sharing of information early on or more attention paid when several of the 9/11 terrorists were linked to Al Queida perhaps the WTC /Pentagon attacks could have been avoided.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable search and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or Affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

That's all assuming, of course, that the wiretaps in this case are the same as in any other. But maybe they're not. Maybe there's something different about this surveillance. It could be in its scope.

But I'm guessing -- and this is just a guess -- that the real difference is in the technology of the wiretaps themselves.
How many terrorists have been charged for terrorism and are in jail since 9/11?

There are thousands of dead ones in Iraq and Afghanistan.
How do you know they were terrorists? Were they charged with a crime? Were they tried and convicted on evidence?

Do you need a court of law to decide who is and isn’t a terrorist? Are you that lacking in common sense?
What do you call groups that purposely target buses, schools, and hospitals that don't have the popular support of Iraqis and Afghans?
Freedom fighters?
Foreigners, Taliban and Baathists holdouts that are using violence in Iraq and Afghanistan are terrorists.
What common sense are you talking about? If you think that there should be one, then guage would have shot me on sight a long time ago, no judges or juries, just "common sense" because he does not like what I say, what I look like or what I wear.... It's that simple!
You need to define terrorist in the proper context and it must go through some test to pass as such. I think that's what courts are for or am I mistaken?
I can site you some examles of wars where the fighters were called terrorists then after the fight was over they were relabeled freedoom fighters, moujahedeen and so on....
Now back to the thousands killed, a lot were from falling bombs from the skies... Let me give you an example, remeber that wedding party that got wiped out by some jet? Were they terrorists as well because they happened to have been killed by US forces? If so, then you are absolutly right, let them all die and then let history sort through it when all shit settles down....



Are you actually trying to debate whether thousands of terrorists have been killed? Or are you so blinded by the left wing disease of moral equivalence that you have a tough time telling the differnce between a US soldier and Zarqawi?
No I have no doubt that Al Zarquawi is a terrorist; as to US soldiers it all depends. The majority are well intentioned but we have seen over and over that some were enjoying themselves while killing anything that pleases them or torturing for whatever sick gratification that they seek. Don't tell me it ain't so... But these soldiers will NEVER be jusdged as terrorists no matter how much terror they bring about.
I also don't have the authrity to judge them but to have an opinion and mine is clear... Technically for some people here and elsewhere in their opinions I am a terrorist as well since I speak up against your administration's ills and of course being from "over there" does not help either. To prove my point, in your opinion, say your NSA has watched this thread as it developed, what are my chances of being denied a visa to come visit you for Christmas? Let's not fool ourselves, there is not a chance in the universe they will let me passed the guards at your embassy....



Well then if you acknowledge Zarqawi is a terrorist you should have no problem with my statement that thousands of terrorists have been killed.
As for US soldiers, they're definitely not terrorists.
Freeing Iraq from the Baathist butchers was never going to be a clean operation but the Iraqi people seem to be happy that they're free of that. And over time it'll be quite clear this was a very positive thing for all parties involved (except for the terrorists of course).
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post #56 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-21-2005, 02:19 PM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Not without checks and balances. There are none in place under the Patriot Act.
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post #57 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-21-2005, 02:25 PM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 3:03 PM

Well then if you acknowledge Zarqawi is a terrorist you should have no problem with my statement that thousands of terrorists have been killed.
As for US soldiers, they're definitely not terrorists.
Freeing Iraq from the Baathist butchers was never going to be a clean operation but the Iraqi people seem to be happy that they're free of that. And over time it'll be quite clear this was a very positive thing for all parties involved (except for the terrorists of course).
Eek, let's pare this down a bit.

Exactly Shabah, how can you determine if people are terrorists unless you have courts? Sure, thousands of people have been killed, but last I heard Zarqawi was not among them. And it's easy to say our soldiers are not terrorists because you are not on the other end of their weapons. What about the Iraqi civilians? For one second, just try to put yourself in their position. Doesn't sound like you can; that's too bad.

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post #58 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-21-2005, 03:49 PM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
old300D - 12/21/2005 4:25 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 3:03 PM

Well then if you acknowledge Zarqawi is a terrorist you should have no problem with my statement that thousands of terrorists have been killed.
As for US soldiers, they're definitely not terrorists.
Freeing Iraq from the Baathist butchers was never going to be a clean operation but the Iraqi people seem to be happy that they're free of that. And over time it'll be quite clear this was a very positive thing for all parties involved (except for the terrorists of course).
Eek, let's pare this down a bit.

Exactly Shabah, how can you determine if people are terrorists unless you have courts? Sure, thousands of people have been killed, but last I heard Zarqawi was not among them. And it's easy to say our soldiers are not terrorists because you are not on the other end of their weapons. What about the Iraqi civilians? For one second, just try to put yourself in their position. Doesn't sound like you can; that's too bad.


Huh? So you're saying the only entity capable of judging what is or isn't a terrorist is a court?
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post #59 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-21-2005, 03:55 PM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

I just heard some so-called expert on MSNBC present the Jose Padilla defense for GW in regard to the spy scandal. Basically, he was saying that if GW can get away with locking up an American citizen for three years without filing charges, he can pretty much do anything. Spying does seem pretty lightweight next to incarceration... What the hell has this country come to? Have the terrorists won?

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post #60 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-21-2005, 03:58 PM
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RE: Does the president have a right to spy on US citizens?

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 5:49 PM

Quote:
old300D - 12/21/2005 4:25 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 12/21/2005 3:03 PM

Well then if you acknowledge Zarqawi is a terrorist you should have no problem with my statement that thousands of terrorists have been killed.
As for US soldiers, they're definitely not terrorists.
Freeing Iraq from the Baathist butchers was never going to be a clean operation but the Iraqi people seem to be happy that they're free of that. And over time it'll be quite clear this was a very positive thing for all parties involved (except for the terrorists of course).
Eek, let's pare this down a bit.

Exactly Shabah, how can you determine if people are terrorists unless you have courts? Sure, thousands of people have been killed, but last I heard Zarqawi was not among them. And it's easy to say our soldiers are not terrorists because you are not on the other end of their weapons. What about the Iraqi civilians? For one second, just try to put yourself in their position. Doesn't sound like you can; that's too bad.


Huh? So you're saying the only entity capable of judging what is or isn't a terrorist is a court?
You said it, the keyword is judging, and only a court can do that, that's why you have a judge...
We on the other hand along with the media and politicians have opinions or point of views...
The UN in a way acts like a pseudo judge for things that can't fit in a traditional court, so our representatives can vote and make whatever they come up with binding or legal in the eyes of all nations...
Does that help????
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