Tookie Williams to Die...Governor Denies Clemency - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-13-2005, 03:10 PM
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RE: Tookie Williams to Die...Governor Denies Clemency

tcp - Rehabilitated? Not even a little bit! He never even admitted to his crimes, or told his victims families he was sorry. Is this society better off without him? You bet it is! Do you think warehousing
hardened killers is economically feasible? You bet it isn't. Take out the trash, don't save it.
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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-13-2005, 03:19 PM
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RE: Tookie Williams to Die...Governor Denies Clemency

Rationality tells me to oppose the death penalty but in the end, I don't look at it as a deterrant to other would-be killers, but as a punishment for the killer himself. You can not rehabilitate the kind of filthy refuse who would shoot a person, a woman no less, in the face with a shotgun. He played all those fools in Hollywood but not the Terminator.

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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-13-2005, 03:33 PM
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RE: Tookie Williams to Die...Governor Denies Clemency

society could benefit with a few more hanging judges.
I agree one death of a motherf***er will not stop much of the worlds violence, yet if enough of these bastards were killed it would start to matter.
yes human life is sacred but people like tookie are not human
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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-13-2005, 04:20 PM
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RE: Tookie Williams to Die...Governor Denies Clemency

Death Penalties would be more of a deterrant if:

1. It was carried out in a timely fashion (within 2 years of the crime)

2. More were performed every year.

3. The execution was aired on National television (in which case, the electric chair could be brought back for more entertainment value)

4. The families of the victims could decide which way they die!

The victims got no trial, no jury but yet judgement was passed and sentence carried out by the murderer. The victims got no chances for clemency or commuted sentences. They were killed with no regard for anything or anyone.
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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-13-2005, 04:54 PM
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Re: Let's remember the victims

Quote:
tcp_ML500 - 12/13/2005 4:06 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/12/2005 11:27 PM
Let's remember Tookie's victims
I don't disagree with you much Az, and I will support your point, although I will do so in bad faith!

How was society's advanced by his death?
Was justice searved?
Were the victims of his crimes avenged?

Society is not better off today, after his death, than it was yesterday. On the contrary.

The man who was put to death yesterday, is not the man who brutally killed these individuals.

Sparing his life would be by no means forgetting them. It would have been honoring them
Would I be the facther of one of the victims, I'd want to kill the bastard right there, right then

This is 25 years later. The man has changed. Was his rehabilitaion genuine? Does it matter if the results show that the impact was positive? I think not!

Were I a parent of the victim, 25 years later, I would have petitioned to save the man's life.

Who better then him can talk to those who join gangs. Who, of the multitude who do not want the victims forgotten has done so? The truth is, if I were a family of his victims, after seeing his work and its impact, I would want him to continue his work, to honor the lives of the family member I had lost, until his death in the carceral system. If his work only served to save one future victim by turning people away from gangs, this would be much more done in memory of my family member than would ever be accomplished by his death.

Further, the death penalty has no value as detterent. What criminal plans to be caught?
I am not defending or promoting the execution of Tookie or anyone else. I am a former death penalty enthusiast who, when confronted with DNA evidence which vindicated death row inmates, realized that we may have executed innocent men/women previous to that science.

I am unwilling to accept the execution of any innocent human being. Until I am convinced scientifically of the guilt of a callous murderer, I am uncomfortable with the final solution.

My post was to refocus the attention on the victims. They are involuntarily silent in this matter. Their abbreviated lives are largely forgotten as Tookie selfishly claims the attention of a passively interested nation.

I like you too.[:D]

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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-13-2005, 07:08 PM
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Re: Let's remember the victims

Quote:
tcp_ML500 - 12/13/2005 4:06 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/12/2005 11:27 PM
Let's remember Tookie's victims
I don't disagree with you much Az, and I will support your point, although I will do so in bad faith!

How was society's advanced by his death?
Was justice searved?
Were the victims of his crimes avenged?

Society is not better off today, after his death, than it was yesterday. On the contrary.

The man who was put to death yesterday, is not the man who brutally killed these individuals.

Sparing his life would be by no means forgetting them. It would have been honoring them
Would I be the facther of one of the victims, I'd want to kill the bastard right there, right then

This is 25 years later. The man has changed. Was his rehabilitaion genuine? Does it matter if the results show that the impact was positive? I think not!

Were I a parent of the victim, 25 years later, I would have petitioned to save the man's life.

Who better then him can talk to those who join gangs. Who, of the multitude who do not want the victims forgotten has done so? The truth is, if I were a family of his victims, after seeing his work and its impact, I would want him to continue his work, to honor the lives of the family member I had lost, until his death in the carceral system. If his work only served to save one future victim by turning people away from gangs, this would be much more done in memory of my family member than would ever be accomplished by his death.

Further, the death penalty has no value as detterent. What criminal plans to be caught?
No recidivism.

B
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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-13-2005, 09:19 PM
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RE: Tookie Williams to Die...Governor Denies Clemency

Quote:
cmitchprint - 12/13/2005 4:20 PM

Death Penalties would be more of a deterrant if:

1. It was carried out in a timely fashion (within 2 years of the crime)

2. More were performed every year.

3. The execution was aired on National television (in which case, the electric chair could be brought back for more entertainment value)

4. The families of the victims could decide which way they die!

The victims got no trial, no jury but yet judgement was passed and sentence carried out by the murderer. The victims got no chances for clemency or commuted sentences. They were killed with no regard for anything or anyone.
Why not send a message that the taking of human life is wrong, rather than climb in the gutter with the murderer and promote it?

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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-13-2005, 09:21 PM
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RE: Tookie Williams to Die...Governor Denies Clemency

Quote:
ThrillKill - 12/13/2005 3:19 PM

Rationality tells me to oppose the death penalty but in the end, I don't look at it as a deterrant to other would-be killers, but as a punishment for the killer himself. You can not rehabilitate the kind of filthy refuse who would shoot a person, a woman no less, in the face with a shotgun. He played all those fools in Hollywood but not the Terminator.
The way it's handled in this country, capital punishment is also a punishment for the victims' families as well. How does waiting 20 - 25 years to execute a sentence promote closure for the poor families of the victims? It's disgraceful.

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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-13-2005, 09:46 PM
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RE: Tookie Williams to Die...Governor Denies Clemency

Quote:
GermanStar - 12/13/2005 10:21 PM

Quote:
ThrillKill - 12/13/2005 3:19 PM

Rationality tells me to oppose the death penalty but in the end, I don't look at it as a deterrant to other would-be killers, but as a punishment for the killer himself. You can not rehabilitate the kind of filthy refuse who would shoot a person, a woman no less, in the face with a shotgun. He played all those fools in Hollywood but not the Terminator.
The way it's handled in this country, capital punishment is also a punishment for the victims' families as well. How does waiting 20 - 25 years to execute a sentence promote closure for the poor families of the victims? It's disgraceful.
Unfortunately as we've seen in Illinois, mistakes are made so we cannot rush these sentences until all appeals are exasperated.
We should not be handing out death penalties to appease the families. This should not be an act of revenge but rather a permanent removal of an offender so heinous that it would not befit us to attempt rehabilitation. I realize people do bad things due to intoxication or drug abuse or simply by acts of passion but this cannot be excused. There has to be an ultimate price for ones actions. There will always be those who either have no respect for the law or are too stupid to consider the consequences. There are others like Tookie who are smart enough to work the system but this should not give them any more rights.

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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-14-2005, 04:41 AM
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RE: Tookie Williams to Die...Governor Denies Clemency

ive a question for all of youall?

how many of youall have had loved ones killed like this?

i dont mean to trivialize anyones emotions or feelings; i am just wondering how many are actually effected by things like this?

i had an uncle who was shot in the head in gary, indiana. he bought the wrong car, apparently.

i dont think cases like this should be viewed as revenge or 'getting mines' its more an issue of not giving people that kill in cold blood the chance to do it again.

i am not saying people that forget to use their blinkers should be put in the chair, now... just that if these people cant stop at a bloody nose and black eye, if they have to extinguish the lives of people for some reason... their lives should be given the same measure of importance as they gave to their victims.

in this case, i might say that multiple wounds would be appropriate. maybe he ought to have begged to be shown mercy. maybe by a big scary man shoving a gun in his face and then blowing off his ears. one at a time, even.

pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

This signature removed to protect the innocent.
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