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post #61 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-25-2005, 03:44 PM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

"Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link?"

So Bush & Cheney are calling themselves torture victims now?

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post #62 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-25-2005, 06:27 PM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

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Marsden - 12/25/2005 4:44 PM

"Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link?"

So Bush & Cheney are calling themselves torture victims now?
With them anything is possible. Have to give them kudos for creativity.
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post #63 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-25-2005, 06:55 PM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 6:28 PM

seriously though, I developed pain in a tooth that should have none. Seems the previous procedure was incomplete somehow......

Anyway, I'll read the account you linked Shabah. Thanks for that.

Jim, please be patient with me on this, but I can't see how the presence of Osama in Afghanistan demonstrates Rumsfeld's deception.

Having dealt with various personalities throughout my life, it is typical language for someone who is making the case for expanded endeavors.

This is not to say he didn't lie. It is to say that it seems inconclusive to me. You have a good reason for your perspective. I'll share it if I can understand the justice of it.
I think there are a series of conclusively proven lies that make the likelihood of there being more lies about bigger, more important agendas, more likely. The pattern is being developed by the Bush Administration on a daily basis. The supposition that there are blunders that could explain the blatant and repeated lying is just not believable anymore.

The fact that Osamma was suspected of being in Afghanistan, and we sent thousands of troops there specifically to catch him, would make the statement that there are no good targets in Afghanistan untrue. Not a mistake, just a lie by the omission of the rest of the sentence, which might have been more accurate if stated as "there are no good targets in Afghanistan that we can find, or locate or know the whereabouts of." What makes it a lie is the purposeful omission of the parts of the sentence that make it true, because they would amount to admitting a shortcoming. Or, some explanation of how Osamma is no longer a good target is required. Jim
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post #64 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-25-2005, 07:15 PM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
JimSmith - 12/25/2005 8:55 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 6:28 PM

seriously though, I developed pain in a tooth that should have none. Seems the previous procedure was incomplete somehow......

Anyway, I'll read the account you linked Shabah. Thanks for that.

Jim, please be patient with me on this, but I can't see how the presence of Osama in Afghanistan demonstrates Rumsfeld's deception.

Having dealt with various personalities throughout my life, it is typical language for someone who is making the case for expanded endeavors.

This is not to say he didn't lie. It is to say that it seems inconclusive to me. You have a good reason for your perspective. I'll share it if I can understand the justice of it.
I think there are a series of conclusively proven lies that make the likelihood of there being more lies about bigger, more important agendas, more likely. The pattern is being developed by the Bush Administration on a daily basis. The supposition that there are blunders that could explain the blatant and repeated lying is just not believable anymore.

The fact that Osamma was suspected of being in Afghanistan, and we sent thousands of troops there specifically to catch him, would make the statement that there are no good targets in Afghanistan untrue. Not a mistake, just a lie by the omission of the rest of the sentence, which might have been more accurate if stated as "there are no good targets in Afghanistan that we can find, or locate or know the whereabouts of." What makes it a lie is the purposeful omission of the parts of the sentence that make it true, because they would amount to admitting a shortcoming. Or, some explanation of how Osamma is no longer a good target is required. Jim

I see that this makes sense if Osama was still in Afghanistan and/or he was still considered a good target at the time of Rummy's statement. I still wonder if he could have been wrong or his opinion could have been wrong without the intent to deceive.

From each perspective, peristalsis seems more likely when tempered by our political inclinations while rejection of the opposition's perspective appears automatic and pejoratively dismissive. I can say this, if there was a massive administration wide deception of this nation and the world, it will be discovered as facts arise. Truth has a way of surfacing. Lies, while temporarily effective, by their nature are unsustainable.

Someone is lying. I just can't trust that either party is completely forthcoming while pointing at the other with assumption/resumption of power hanging in the balance. So as an inconsequential individual, I can only suspect culprits as prudence lends a 'wait and see' posture.

Thanks for your patience, Jim. I appreciate your perspective.

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post #65 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-25-2005, 09:56 PM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
azimuth - 12/25/2005 9:15 PM
From each perspective, peristalsis seems more likely when tempered by our political inclinations while rejection of the opposition's perspective appears automatic and pejoratively dismissive. I can say this,
You sure can [;)]
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post #66 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-25-2005, 11:03 PM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 12:41 AM

You mean alleged torture victim. Mr Libi (sounds like a libby to me) claims to have been tortured while in Egyptian custody. A claim flatly denied by Egyptian officials.

That prisoners and terrorists are liars is not unusual. I find it rookie-esque to have relied on a prisoner's word as reason for war.....if that's what happened.

The NY times has a shady track record as far as I'm concerned, so who knows when they are being accurate and when they are disseminating propaganda?
If this is an accurate description and if the subsequent argument, that current US leadership is equally unreliable, then how is it possible to make a definitive statement about anything to do with this whole (supposed) controversy?

bOt
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post #67 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-25-2005, 11:45 PM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
Botnst - 12/26/2005 1:03 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 12:41 AM

You mean alleged torture victim. Mr Libi (sounds like a libby to me) claims to have been tortured while in Egyptian custody. A claim flatly denied by Egyptian officials.

That prisoners and terrorists are liars is not unusual. I find it rookie-esque to have relied on a prisoner's word as reason for war.....if that's what happened.

The NY times has a shady track record as far as I'm concerned, so who knows when they are being accurate and when they are disseminating propaganda?
If this is an accurate description and if the subsequent argument, that current US leadership is equally unreliable, then how is it possible to make a definitive statement about anything to do with this whole (supposed) controversy?

bOt
Bingo.......unless the point is mud-slinging to see what will stick.....

Bot, I don't think anyone here knows half of what they think they know relative to this anti-terrorist effort. I'd be willing to bet that ninety percent of the dross floating about this forum is motivated by covetousness for political power while disguised as real patriotic or humanitarian concern. just a hunch.


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post #68 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-26-2005, 12:00 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
azimuth - 12/25/2005 12:45 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 12/26/2005 1:03 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 12:41 AM

You mean alleged torture victim. Mr Libi (sounds like a libby to me) claims to have been tortured while in Egyptian custody. A claim flatly denied by Egyptian officials.

That prisoners and terrorists are liars is not unusual. I find it rookie-esque to have relied on a prisoner's word as reason for war.....if that's what happened.

The NY times has a shady track record as far as I'm concerned, so who knows when they are being accurate and when they are disseminating propaganda?
If this is an accurate description and if the subsequent argument, that current US leadership is equally unreliable, then how is it possible to make a definitive statement about anything to do with this whole (supposed) controversy?

bOt
Bingo.......unless the point is mud-slinging to see what will stick.....

Bot, I don't think anyone here knows half of what they think they know relative to this anti-terrorist effort. I'd be willing to bet that ninety percent of the dross floating about this forum is motivated by covetousness for political power while disguised as real patriotic or humanitarian concern. just a hunch.
Or maybe your asking for too much?
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post #69 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-26-2005, 12:02 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
Shane - 12/26/2005 2:00 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/25/2005 12:45 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 12/26/2005 1:03 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 12:41 AM

You mean alleged torture victim. Mr Libi (sounds like a libby to me) claims to have been tortured while in Egyptian custody. A claim flatly denied by Egyptian officials.

That prisoners and terrorists are liars is not unusual. I find it rookie-esque to have relied on a prisoner's word as reason for war.....if that's what happened.

The NY times has a shady track record as far as I'm concerned, so who knows when they are being accurate and when they are disseminating propaganda?
If this is an accurate description and if the subsequent argument, that current US leadership is equally unreliable, then how is it possible to make a definitive statement about anything to do with this whole (supposed) controversy?

bOt
Bingo.......unless the point is mud-slinging to see what will stick.....

Bot, I don't think anyone here knows half of what they think they know relative to this anti-terrorist effort. I'd be willing to bet that ninety percent of the dross floating about this forum is motivated by covetousness for political power while disguised as real patriotic or humanitarian concern. just a hunch.
Or maybe your asking for too much?
You may be right.

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post #70 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-26-2005, 08:15 PM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
azimuth - 12/26/2005 1:45 AM
I'd be willing to bet that ninety percent of the dross floating about this forum is motivated by covetousness for political power while disguised as real patriotic or humanitarian concern. just a hunch.
There are people on this forum who want to take over the government?

Who are they? Are they close to their goal? Are nominations permitted?

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