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post #41 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 09:27 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 9:22 AM

Is rummy's statement a lie or a mistake?
[V]
Well here's my interpretation. He knew the terrorists were in Afghanistan, but wanted to bomb Iraq in direct retaliation for 9/11 because there were no good targets in Afghanistan. Oopsie.

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post #42 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 10:04 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 9:22 AM

I'm too slow to follow the second statement.
Why wasn't Iraq invaded a year before? How about two years before? Why didn't we invade Iraq this year, or maybe next year? Why were plans to invade Iraq made public by GW on 9/12/2001, given the fact that Iraq was simply an innocent bystander in regard to the events of 9/11, which wouldn't have even occurred had we not been complicit in training the terrorists?

Why did GW, Cheney and others imply and/or blatantly state that Iraq bore responsibility for the 9/11 attack?

We all have our standards, but this fails my personal litmus test for honesty. Seeking evidence to support a predisposed stance also fails that test.

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post #43 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 11:22 AM
I'll be back later........Dentist.[V]
Ah yes the "Dentist". Guys, I've taken the liberty of arranging a little "torture" demo for azimuth. We'll see how he "defines" it after they're done...[}:)]
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post #44 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 10:46 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

"Is it safe?"
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post #45 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 10:50 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Not entirely.....


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post #46 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 11:09 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 10:16 AM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/9/2005 9:43 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 12:41 AM

You mean alleged torture victim. Mr Libi (sounds like a libby to me) claims to have been tortured while in Egyptian custody. A claim flatly denied by Egyptian officials.

That prisoners and terrorists are liars is not unusual. I find it rookie-esque to have relied on a prisoner's word as reason for war.....if that's what happened.

The NY times has a shady track record as far as I'm concerned, so who knows when they are being accurate and when they are disseminating propaganda?
So far the US alleged many things and they have bee uncovered as total lies... oh for some they are not lies but a series of unfortunate events beyond their control... Sometimes I want to laugh but I know it's sad, how do you justify billions spent on intelligence matter then your administration relies on confession extracted through torture? OK OK I say torture and you're gonna say stronger persuasive methods that's all... Of course that only applies in one direction, that is if the "enemy" tortured you then it's torture, the other way around is simply open for interpretation as YOU see it fit..
So since you find it rookie-esque to rely on a prisoner's (was he a prisoner or a detainee?, I wonder cause that has implications also, well what do I know..) whay did your government use his confession? OK OK you're gonna say no we had intelligence, so this lead was acually not the one we used... Where is that intelligence? how reliable has it been so far?
Az, if you find your own papers as harboring lies why don't you go to this site: www.debka.com, you will be amazed what you will find there... Oh that site's assertions were used by your government to make some cases, here goes your tax dollar at work....
Thanks for the link, Shabah. I'll check it out.[8)]

This whole discussion is about definitions.

What is a lie? What is the prisoner? What is torture? What is a gratuitous claim and what is fact?


When are you coming to Phoenix?[:D]
You welcome Az, bookmark that link so you can see how policy is made or action is taken just after articles are published on tha site... It never fails.

I know what you're saying about definition but here is a story from a lawyer who is not an insurgent but: "Yasir al-Qutaji is a 30-year-old lawyer from Mosul, Iraq. In March 2004, while exploring allegations that US troops were torturing Iraqis, Qutaji was arrested by American forces." Read this article as he became the subject of torture: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051226/bayoumi

Az, there are too many accounts like this that the argument "isolated incidents" does not hold water. The cover up is making it worse for the US administration as more and more people are going to come forward knowing that the US is in the defensive and can no longer threaten them with the "promissed procescutions" it dangled over their heads so far.

About Phoenix, I assure you that I will let you know whenever I am there. I am sure we will have a great time. Right now Houston is eeping me too busy... ooops, I forgot I am not KV, strike that. Its date harvest season right now so you can imagine the wheeling and dealing going on with the wholesellers. Oy, what a bunch of crooks, they love to apply game theory whenever they negotiate but I think I am ahead of them since I read the book and did some of the fuzzy math that it entails...
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post #47 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 11:11 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
Shabah - 12/9/2005 1:09 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 10:16 AM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/9/2005 9:43 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 12:41 AM

You mean alleged torture victim. Mr Libi (sounds like a libby to me) claims to have been tortured while in Egyptian custody. A claim flatly denied by Egyptian officials.

That prisoners and terrorists are liars is not unusual. I find it rookie-esque to have relied on a prisoner's word as reason for war.....if that's what happened.

The NY times has a shady track record as far as I'm concerned, so who knows when they are being accurate and when they are disseminating propaganda?
So far the US alleged many things and they have bee uncovered as total lies... oh for some they are not lies but a series of unfortunate events beyond their control... Sometimes I want to laugh but I know it's sad, how do you justify billions spent on intelligence matter then your administration relies on confession extracted through torture? OK OK I say torture and you're gonna say stronger persuasive methods that's all... Of course that only applies in one direction, that is if the "enemy" tortured you then it's torture, the other way around is simply open for interpretation as YOU see it fit..
So since you find it rookie-esque to rely on a prisoner's (was he a prisoner or a detainee?, I wonder cause that has implications also, well what do I know..) whay did your government use his confession? OK OK you're gonna say no we had intelligence, so this lead was acually not the one we used... Where is that intelligence? how reliable has it been so far?
Az, if you find your own papers as harboring lies why don't you go to this site: www.debka.com, you will be amazed what you will find there... Oh that site's assertions were used by your government to make some cases, here goes your tax dollar at work....
Thanks for the link, Shabah. I'll check it out.[8)]

This whole discussion is about definitions.

What is a lie? What is the prisoner? What is torture? What is a gratuitous claim and what is fact?


When are you coming to Phoenix?[:D]
You welcome Az, bookmark that link so you can see how policy is made or action is taken just after articles are published on tha site... It never fails.

I know what you're saying about definition but here is a story from a lawyer who is not an insurgent but: "Yasir al-Qutaji is a 30-year-old lawyer from Mosul, Iraq. In March 2004, while exploring allegations that US troops were torturing Iraqis, Qutaji was arrested by American forces." Read this article as he became the subject of torture: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051226/bayoumi

Az, there are too many accounts like this that the argument "isolated incidents" does not hold water. The cover up is making it worse for the US administration as more and more people are going to come forward knowing that the US is in the defensive and can no longer threaten them with the "promissed procescutions" it dangled over their heads so far.

About Phoenix, I assure you that I will let you know whenever I am there. I am sure we will have a great time. Right now Houston is eeping me too busy... ooops, I forgot I am not KV, strike that. Its date harvest season right now so you can imagine the wheeling and dealing going on with the wholesellers. Oy, what a bunch of crooks, they love to apply game theory whenever they negotiate but I think I am ahead of them since I read the book and did some of the fuzzy math that it entails...
"The Nation"......

hahahaha!!!

B
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post #48 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 11:18 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
Botnst - 12/9/2005 1:11 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/9/2005 1:09 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 10:16 AM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/9/2005 9:43 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 12:41 AM

You mean alleged torture victim. Mr Libi (sounds like a libby to me) claims to have been tortured while in Egyptian custody. A claim flatly denied by Egyptian officials.

That prisoners and terrorists are liars is not unusual. I find it rookie-esque to have relied on a prisoner's word as reason for war.....if that's what happened.

The NY times has a shady track record as far as I'm concerned, so who knows when they are being accurate and when they are disseminating propaganda?
So far the US alleged many things and they have bee uncovered as total lies... oh for some they are not lies but a series of unfortunate events beyond their control... Sometimes I want to laugh but I know it's sad, how do you justify billions spent on intelligence matter then your administration relies on confession extracted through torture? OK OK I say torture and you're gonna say stronger persuasive methods that's all... Of course that only applies in one direction, that is if the "enemy" tortured you then it's torture, the other way around is simply open for interpretation as YOU see it fit..
So since you find it rookie-esque to rely on a prisoner's (was he a prisoner or a detainee?, I wonder cause that has implications also, well what do I know..) whay did your government use his confession? OK OK you're gonna say no we had intelligence, so this lead was acually not the one we used... Where is that intelligence? how reliable has it been so far?
Az, if you find your own papers as harboring lies why don't you go to this site: www.debka.com, you will be amazed what you will find there... Oh that site's assertions were used by your government to make some cases, here goes your tax dollar at work....
Thanks for the link, Shabah. I'll check it out.[8)]

This whole discussion is about definitions.

What is a lie? What is the prisoner? What is torture? What is a gratuitous claim and what is fact?


When are you coming to Phoenix?[:D]
You welcome Az, bookmark that link so you can see how policy is made or action is taken just after articles are published on tha site... It never fails.

I know what you're saying about definition but here is a story from a lawyer who is not an insurgent but: "Yasir al-Qutaji is a 30-year-old lawyer from Mosul, Iraq. In March 2004, while exploring allegations that US troops were torturing Iraqis, Qutaji was arrested by American forces." Read this article as he became the subject of torture: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051226/bayoumi

Az, there are too many accounts like this that the argument "isolated incidents" does not hold water. The cover up is making it worse for the US administration as more and more people are going to come forward knowing that the US is in the defensive and can no longer threaten them with the "promissed procescutions" it dangled over their heads so far.

About Phoenix, I assure you that I will let you know whenever I am there. I am sure we will have a great time. Right now Houston is eeping me too busy... ooops, I forgot I am not KV, strike that. Its date harvest season right now so you can imagine the wheeling and dealing going on with the wholesellers. Oy, what a bunch of crooks, they love to apply game theory whenever they negotiate but I think I am ahead of them since I read the book and did some of the fuzzy math that it entails...
"The Nation"......

hahahaha!!!

B

Your point Bot?????

Here is their moto:

About The Nation
The Nation will not be the organ of any party, sect, or body. It will, on the contrary, make an earnest effort to bring to the discussion of political and social questions a really critical spirit, and to wage war upon the vices of violence, exaggeration, and misrepresentation by which so much of the political writing of the day is marred.
-- from The Nation's founding prospectus, 1865
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post #49 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 12:03 PM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
Shabah - 12/9/2005 1:18 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 12/9/2005 1:11 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/9/2005 1:09 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 10:16 AM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/9/2005 9:43 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 12:41 AM

You mean alleged torture victim. Mr Libi (sounds like a libby to me) claims to have been tortured while in Egyptian custody. A claim flatly denied by Egyptian officials.

That prisoners and terrorists are liars is not unusual. I find it rookie-esque to have relied on a prisoner's word as reason for war.....if that's what happened.

The NY times has a shady track record as far as I'm concerned, so who knows when they are being accurate and when they are disseminating propaganda?
So far the US alleged many things and they have bee uncovered as total lies... oh for some they are not lies but a series of unfortunate events beyond their control... Sometimes I want to laugh but I know it's sad, how do you justify billions spent on intelligence matter then your administration relies on confession extracted through torture? OK OK I say torture and you're gonna say stronger persuasive methods that's all... Of course that only applies in one direction, that is if the "enemy" tortured you then it's torture, the other way around is simply open for interpretation as YOU see it fit..
So since you find it rookie-esque to rely on a prisoner's (was he a prisoner or a detainee?, I wonder cause that has implications also, well what do I know..) whay did your government use his confession? OK OK you're gonna say no we had intelligence, so this lead was acually not the one we used... Where is that intelligence? how reliable has it been so far?
Az, if you find your own papers as harboring lies why don't you go to this site: www.debka.com, you will be amazed what you will find there... Oh that site's assertions were used by your government to make some cases, here goes your tax dollar at work....
Thanks for the link, Shabah. I'll check it out.[8)]

This whole discussion is about definitions.

What is a lie? What is the prisoner? What is torture? What is a gratuitous claim and what is fact?


When are you coming to Phoenix?[:D]
You welcome Az, bookmark that link so you can see how policy is made or action is taken just after articles are published on tha site... It never fails.

I know what you're saying about definition but here is a story from a lawyer who is not an insurgent but: "Yasir al-Qutaji is a 30-year-old lawyer from Mosul, Iraq. In March 2004, while exploring allegations that US troops were torturing Iraqis, Qutaji was arrested by American forces." Read this article as he became the subject of torture: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051226/bayoumi

Az, there are too many accounts like this that the argument "isolated incidents" does not hold water. The cover up is making it worse for the US administration as more and more people are going to come forward knowing that the US is in the defensive and can no longer threaten them with the "promissed procescutions" it dangled over their heads so far.

About Phoenix, I assure you that I will let you know whenever I am there. I am sure we will have a great time. Right now Houston is eeping me too busy... ooops, I forgot I am not KV, strike that. Its date harvest season right now so you can imagine the wheeling and dealing going on with the wholesellers. Oy, what a bunch of crooks, they love to apply game theory whenever they negotiate but I think I am ahead of them since I read the book and did some of the fuzzy math that it entails...
"The Nation"......

hahahaha!!!

B

Your point Bot?????

Here is their moto:

About The Nation
The Nation will not be the organ of any party, sect, or body. It will, on the contrary, make an earnest effort to bring to the discussion of political and social questions a really critical spirit, and to wage war upon the vices of violence, exaggeration, and misrepresentation by which so much of the political writing of the day is marred.
-- from The Nation's founding prospectus, 1865
Saying it (in 1865) makes it so (today).

Translate the word "Truth" into Russian for me, please.

B
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post #50 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 12:06 PM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

"Pravda". Now make your point and try to use evidence instead of innuendo, if possible.

OBK #35

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