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post #21 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 12:24 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

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BENZ REB - 12/9/2005 2:19 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 2:10 AM

Can you show me in official US policy literature where torture is acceptable?
Now you're not being serious. The whole point of this discussion is the continued disconnect between avowed and actual policy.
Quote:
Do you think anyone is defining torture up for political gain?
I haven't seen it happen, but it's certainly possible.

Let's define it up. Make a slightly better world.
I am being serious. When grave claims are made like those here tonight, there ought to be some credibility established or they are heresay/gratuitous assertions to be dismissed as gratuitously. Do you still assert we torture as a policy?

How far would you define torture up?

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post #22 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 12:28 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

When there were just a few stories of U.S. torture, people could be excused for not believing. No longer. It's pervasive and widely-documented. It's done enormous damage to the U.S.'s moral standing as well as its credibility.

As far as redefining torture, that will have to wait as it's very late in my part of the world.
Good night.
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post #23 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 12:34 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

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BENZ REB - 12/9/2005 2:28 AM

When there were just a few stories of U.S. torture, people could be excused for not believing. No longer. It's pervasive and widely-documented. It's done enormous damage to the U.S.'s moral standing as well as its credibility.

As far as redefining torture, that will have to wait as it's very late in my part of the world.
Good night.
Goodnight. I won't take a parting shot since you are most likely gone.

If you get a chance, perhaps you could define torture for the sake of perspective here. We may be on the same page and not know it.

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post #24 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 06:34 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Az,

Just for perspective, why don't you tell us what that term Condoleeza coined to avoid saying torture means? What is our policy? Do you believe the Bush Administration has attempted to redefine the concept or definition in the last five years?

Listen, for me, if we were honest about what we do and why we do it, we would be better off. Have an open debate, have Congress and the Supreme Court issue rules and opinions on the rules that say they are Constitutional and so on, and go for it. Doing it and lying about it is not working. It makes us look like liars when we get caught in lies of our own making, which is clearly not in the nation's best interests.

If we think we need to torture people to protect America, lets just say so and deal with the issue up front. This parsing and challenging about things that our government officials make trips to the heads of state in Europe to discuss and then deny just doesn't lend credibility to the claim we don't torture or whatever more politically correct term Condi calls it now.

We do things we didn't used to do. We do things McCain and others in the Senate say we should not do. Stop trying to justify what we do by demanding details of what the definition is, as the tactic suggests the common man's sensibilities are not valid in deciding what is acceptable treatment of other humans. Jim
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post #25 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 07:24 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
BENZ REB - 12/9/2005 1:21 AM

Quote:
mzsmbs - 12/9/2005 1:17 AM
those pictures from abu ghraib must be from saddam era or just a figment of my imagination..
I loved the progression with Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

1. Stories leaked out: "The stories are lies"

2. Photos began to surface: "The photos are doctored"

3. Videos made public: "Isolated incidents"

4. More videoes, photos, stories: "Anti-American Propaganda"

5. Finally, "We Don't Torture". Hey, it might fly, right?
if it's a patetrn, it must be true.

Doesn't matter that Abu Graib was proven in court to have been an abberration of a few poorly led noncoms.

Grassy knoll.

B
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post #26 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 07:32 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
BENZ REB - 12/9/2005 1:21 AM

Quote:
mzsmbs - 12/9/2005 1:17 AM
those pictures from abu ghraib must be from saddam era or just a figment of my imagination..
I loved the progression with Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

1. Stories leaked out: "The stories are lies"

2. Photos began to surface: "The photos are doctored"

3. Videos made public: "Isolated incidents"

4. More videoes, photos, stories: "Anti-American Propaganda"

5. Finally, "We Don't Torture". Hey, it might fly, right?
That cycle resembles the progresive cloaking of lies kids do whenever they do something wrong, and they know it...
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post #27 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 07:43 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 12:41 AM

You mean alleged torture victim. Mr Libi (sounds like a libby to me) claims to have been tortured while in Egyptian custody. A claim flatly denied by Egyptian officials.

That prisoners and terrorists are liars is not unusual. I find it rookie-esque to have relied on a prisoner's word as reason for war.....if that's what happened.

The NY times has a shady track record as far as I'm concerned, so who knows when they are being accurate and when they are disseminating propaganda?
So far the US alleged many things and they have bee uncovered as total lies... oh for some they are not lies but a series of unfortunate events beyond their control... Sometimes I want to laugh but I know it's sad, how do you justify billions spent on intelligence matter then your administration relies on confession extracted through torture? OK OK I say torture and you're gonna say stronger persuasive methods that's all... Of course that only applies in one direction, that is if the "enemy" tortured you then it's torture, the other way around is simply open for interpretation as YOU see it fit..
So since you find it rookie-esque to rely on a prisoner's (was he a prisoner or a detainee?, I wonder cause that has implications also, well what do I know..) whay did your government use his confession? OK OK you're gonna say no we had intelligence, so this lead was acually not the one we used... Where is that intelligence? how reliable has it been so far?
Az, if you find your own papers as harboring lies why don't you go to this site: www.debka.com, you will be amazed what you will find there... Oh that site's assertions were used by your government to make some cases, here goes your tax dollar at work....
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post #28 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 08:11 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
JimSmith - 12/9/2005 8:34 AM

Az,

Just for perspective, why don't you tell us what that term Condoleeza coined to avoid saying torture means? What is our policy? Do you believe the Bush Administration has attempted to redefine the concept or definition in the last five years?
I asked that same question a few posts ago. I don't know what the def. is

Quote:
JimSmith - 12/9/2005 8:34 AM


Listen, for me, if we were honest about what we do and why we do it, we would be better off. Have an open debate, have Congress and the Supreme Court issue rules and opinions on the rules that say they are Constitutional and so on, and go for it. Doing it and lying about it is not working. It makes us look like liars when we get caught in lies of our own making, which is clearly not in the nation's best interests.

If we think we need to torture people to protect America, lets just say so and deal with the issue up front. This parsing and challenging about things that our government officials make trips to the heads of state in Europe to discuss and then deny just doesn't lend credibility to the claim we don't torture or whatever more politically correct term Condi calls it now.

We do things we didn't used to do. We do things McCain and others in the Senate say we should not do. Stop trying to justify what we do by demanding details of what the definition is, as the tactic suggests the common man's sensibilities are not valid in deciding what is acceptable treatment of other humans. Jim

Until we have an honest discussion of the definition of torture, none of these claims you or anyone makes are worth time it takes to read them. If to one person, torture includes certain acts, and to another person, torture consists of less agressive acts, then the discussion is over before it begins.

You and others assert we are lying about what we are doing with our prisoners. Even senators are making significant claims. But that is all I read. Claims. To date, I have been provided with nothing but Abu Garaib (sp) and Guantanamo bay. Two matters which have been settled and vetted.

In Abu, the perps were prosecuted and sentenced.

In Guantanamo, the claims were investigated and vetted. Nothing came of them.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but where is the proof of the other claims?

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post #29 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 08:16 AM
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RE: Torture Victim "Invented" Iraq-Al Qaeda Link

Quote:
Shabah - 12/9/2005 9:43 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 12/9/2005 12:41 AM

You mean alleged torture victim. Mr Libi (sounds like a libby to me) claims to have been tortured while in Egyptian custody. A claim flatly denied by Egyptian officials.

That prisoners and terrorists are liars is not unusual. I find it rookie-esque to have relied on a prisoner's word as reason for war.....if that's what happened.

The NY times has a shady track record as far as I'm concerned, so who knows when they are being accurate and when they are disseminating propaganda?
So far the US alleged many things and they have bee uncovered as total lies... oh for some they are not lies but a series of unfortunate events beyond their control... Sometimes I want to laugh but I know it's sad, how do you justify billions spent on intelligence matter then your administration relies on confession extracted through torture? OK OK I say torture and you're gonna say stronger persuasive methods that's all... Of course that only applies in one direction, that is if the "enemy" tortured you then it's torture, the other way around is simply open for interpretation as YOU see it fit..
So since you find it rookie-esque to rely on a prisoner's (was he a prisoner or a detainee?, I wonder cause that has implications also, well what do I know..) whay did your government use his confession? OK OK you're gonna say no we had intelligence, so this lead was acually not the one we used... Where is that intelligence? how reliable has it been so far?
Az, if you find your own papers as harboring lies why don't you go to this site: www.debka.com, you will be amazed what you will find there... Oh that site's assertions were used by your government to make some cases, here goes your tax dollar at work....
Thanks for the link, Shabah. I'll check it out.[8)]

This whole discussion is about definitions.

What is a lie? What is the prisoner? What is torture? What is a gratuitous claim and what is fact?


When are you coming to Phoenix?[:D]

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post #30 of 79 (permalink) Old 12-09-2005, 08:19 AM
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f*cking liars

If they can lie about al-quaeda links, they can lie about being tortured.

Whatch me destroy their testimony in court.

I feel so miserable without you; its almost like having you here.
-- Stephen Bishop
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