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post #51 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 10:28 AM
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An ICON!

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GermanStar - 12/7/2005 10:08 AM
After Benjamin Franklin, this genius was the most loved ambassador of the US to my home country.

“I feel so miserable without you; it’s almost like having you here.”
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post #52 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 11:12 AM
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RE: Robust Job Growth

Yeah, what is that? [|)]

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post #53 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 11:17 AM
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RE: An ICON!

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tcp_ML500 - 12/7/2005 11:28 AM

Quote:
GermanStar - 12/7/2005 10:08 AM
After Benjamin Franklin, this genius was the most loved ambassador of the US to my home country.
It's fun to denegrate this misunderstood genius, but I'll put that scene where he is wearing the leather suit and trying to sit down on the plastic furniture up against any comedy scene to date. I need a copy of that.

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post #54 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 11:56 AM
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RE: Robust Job Growth

Quote:
Shabah - 12/7/2005 10:46 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 12/7/2005 8:47 AM

You maybe right about immigration attitudes from abroad, I don't know and don't give a damn about that, either. I just wish this administration o rthe next would close the damned borders so we wouldn't have 200k illegal immigrants sloshing across the borders.
Yes bot, but I am not talking about unskilled labor here, nor about immigration. Most of these students would have gone to your universities, gone back and guess what? They would have spread your ideas in academic settings and business... This is how "democracy" is spread around not by humiliation, war and blatant thievery…
Some might stay because you will find them exceptionally gifted but will have been a brain drain on us but that’s ok because we are willing to pay just so we can at least get in return some well rounded people… The problem this is no longer the case. The “youts� here are getting radicalized by people that make them think they are lending an ear to them, I am worried and I don’t see any good from this… Basically the US shut itself through its policies and by doing so has created ripe environments for problems to fester and grow into puss laden hatred and ignorance…
Just wondering, have you statistics to support your thesis or is this strictly anecdotal?

The reason I ask is that international admissions to our local university are up slighly this year after several years of decline following post-9/11 restrictions and higher imposed standards for admission. The plurality are from India but we also have a large portion from China, Taiwan, South America, Canada (Quebecois, mostly), Europe and a few Africans. Most come from secular countries. There is an active mosque for Muslim kids and there is an active Hindu community of ex-pats. The plurality of students study petroleum and chemical engineering. Most of the remainder are in ME or the sciences. A large minority of grad school enrollees are foreign. I occasionally have student workers and coops that are foriegn. I have had very few students that were anxious to return to to their home country except (unsurprisingly) the Europeans and Canadians.
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post #55 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 03:48 PM
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RE: Robust Job Growth

Quote:
Botnst - 12/7/2005 1:56 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/7/2005 10:46 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 12/7/2005 8:47 AM

You maybe right about immigration attitudes from abroad, I don't know and don't give a damn about that, either. I just wish this administration o rthe next would close the damned borders so we wouldn't have 200k illegal immigrants sloshing across the borders.
Yes bot, but I am not talking about unskilled labor here, nor about immigration. Most of these students would have gone to your universities, gone back and guess what? They would have spread your ideas in academic settings and business... This is how "democracy" is spread around not by humiliation, war and blatant thievery…
Some might stay because you will find them exceptionally gifted but will have been a brain drain on us but that’s ok because we are willing to pay just so we can at least get in return some well rounded people… The problem this is no longer the case. The “youts� here are getting radicalized by people that make them think they are lending an ear to them, I am worried and I don’t see any good from this… Basically the US shut itself through its policies and by doing so has created ripe environments for problems to fester and grow into puss laden hatred and ignorance…
Just wondering, have you statistics to support your thesis or is this strictly anecdotal?

The reason I ask is that international admissions to our local university are up slighly this year after several years of decline following post-9/11 restrictions and higher imposed standards for admission. The plurality are from India but we also have a large portion from China, Taiwan, South America, Canada (Quebecois, mostly), Europe and a few Africans. Most come from secular countries. There is an active mosque for Muslim kids and there is an active Hindu community of ex-pats. The plurality of students study petroleum and chemical engineering. Most of the remainder are in ME or the sciences. A large minority of grad school enrollees are foreign. I occasionally have student workers and coops that are foriegn. I have had very few students that were anxious to return to to their home country except (unsurprisingly) the Europeans and Canadians.

You said it, the plurality are from regions that need your technology such as China and India. They are actively sending their students to the US especially for graduate schools since those are the last places still relatively intact to watered down education.
The ones you really need over in the US are not the potential industrial spies and technology transfer crowd. What I am talking about here is not just engineering also. The present “target� for your administration for a forced democratization is not represented in the population that you speak of. Besides, as I said, it is not just engineering such as Petro-chemical, ME, EE and the rest that will plant the seeds of democracy. You need to think of the humanities, law, business and even arts…
These my friend Bot are the corner stone of a civilized culture… Engineering on the other hand contribute to the building of civilization but it also contribute to its destruction. Think about it, it takes engineering to build horrific weapons but it takes philosophy and ethics to refrain from using them…
Bot, if the United States needs to win in this war on terrorism, it needs to win the hearts but most importantly the minds of people. That can only be done through mutual respect first to open the door for sharing, exchanging and developing common grounds for real peace…
Building mosques for those students actually is not the solution believe it or not… This gesture only leads to believe that the United States is catering but not really bridging. You see the US is not obligated to bend in this fashion because it must remain true to itself but tolerant. The students that want to come to the US have to adapt and accept the local customs; there is no need to build a mini Islam Abad in the heart of Dixie to show tolerance and understanding…
The students will learn about your culture because it will be different. They will learn to appreciate its nuances, and you know, in the old days I used to see people who came back from the US or Europe bringing their memories and fondly talk about them… Those days (I was young) I would listen to them and I would dream of coming too, those recounted experiences were a form of escape for then kids like me that saw nothing but the infinite horizon of the desert… Unfortunately for me I never finished elementary school so I carry those fantasies in my mind as if they part of an alternate life I would have loved to experience…


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post #56 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 05:14 PM
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RE: Robust Job Growth

Quote:
mzsmbs - 12/6/2005 6:12 PM

Quote:
430 - 12/6/2005 10:40 AM

Good news will not get any traction on this board.
the links might sound all nice and dandy but here on the ground 6 local plants are closing -~10000 jobs (GM, delphi, allison (R.R.) and just one steel mill is expanding +120 jobs.. sure dosen't sound all that good to me.


i look through job ads all the time and all i ever see is OTR drivers and nurses.. an engineer here and there with butt load of experience and half the time it's in another state.. some labor jobs are out there and of course every mctaco is hireing. this happened in the early nineties too but this time around it's been going on for 5+ years.
Hmmm. Must be your part of the country. I have seen and know a number of places hiring for Programmers, DBA, Mathmaticians, Nurses, PT's, OT's, Teachers, Mechanicle Engineers, and a number of other fields. Some of these jobs may be tough to get as a new grad but if you have experience...
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post #57 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 07:26 PM
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RE: Robust Job Growth

Quote:
Shabah - 12/7/2005 5:48 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 12/7/2005 1:56 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 12/7/2005 10:46 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 12/7/2005 8:47 AM

You maybe right about immigration attitudes from abroad, I don't know and don't give a damn about that, either. I just wish this administration o rthe next would close the damned borders so we wouldn't have 200k illegal immigrants sloshing across the borders.
Yes bot, but I am not talking about unskilled labor here, nor about immigration. Most of these students would have gone to your universities, gone back and guess what? They would have spread your ideas in academic settings and business... This is how "democracy" is spread around not by humiliation, war and blatant thievery…
Some might stay because you will find them exceptionally gifted but will have been a brain drain on us but that’s ok because we are willing to pay just so we can at least get in return some well rounded people… The problem this is no longer the case. The “youts� here are getting radicalized by people that make them think they are lending an ear to them, I am worried and I don’t see any good from this… Basically the US shut itself through its policies and by doing so has created ripe environments for problems to fester and grow into puss laden hatred and ignorance…
Just wondering, have you statistics to support your thesis or is this strictly anecdotal?

The reason I ask is that international admissions to our local university are up slighly this year after several years of decline following post-9/11 restrictions and higher imposed standards for admission. The plurality are from India but we also have a large portion from China, Taiwan, South America, Canada (Quebecois, mostly), Europe and a few Africans. Most come from secular countries. There is an active mosque for Muslim kids and there is an active Hindu community of ex-pats. The plurality of students study petroleum and chemical engineering. Most of the remainder are in ME or the sciences. A large minority of grad school enrollees are foreign. I occasionally have student workers and coops that are foriegn. I have had very few students that were anxious to return to to their home country except (unsurprisingly) the Europeans and Canadians.

You said it, the plurality are from regions that need your technology such as China and India. They are actively sending their students to the US especially for graduate schools since those are the last places still relatively intact to watered down education.
The ones you really need over in the US are not the potential industrial spies and technology transfer crowd. What I am talking about here is not just engineering also. The present “target� for your administration for a forced democratization is not represented in the population that you speak of. Besides, as I said, it is not just engineering such as Petro-chemical, ME, EE and the rest that will plant the seeds of democracy. You need to think of the humanities, law, business and even arts…
These my friend Bot are the corner stone of a civilized culture… Engineering on the other hand contribute to the building of civilization but it also contribute to its destruction. Think about it, it takes engineering to build horrific weapons but it takes philosophy and ethics to refrain from using them…
Bot, if the United States needs to win in this war on terrorism, it needs to win the hearts but most importantly the minds of people. That can only be done through mutual respect first to open the door for sharing, exchanging and developing common grounds for real peace…
Building mosques for those students actually is not the solution believe it or not… This gesture only leads to believe that the United States is catering but not really bridging. You see the US is not obligated to bend in this fashion because it must remain true to itself but tolerant. The students that want to come to the US have to adapt and accept the local customs; there is no need to build a mini Islam Abad in the heart of Dixie to show tolerance and understanding…
The students will learn about your culture because it will be different. They will learn to appreciate its nuances, and you know, in the old days I used to see people who came back from the US or Europe bringing their memories and fondly talk about them… Those days (I was young) I would listen to them and I would dream of coming too, those recounted experiences were a form of escape for then kids like me that saw nothing but the infinite horizon of the desert… Unfortunately for me I never finished elementary school so I carry those fantasies in my mind as if they part of an alternate life I would have loved to experience…

The USA does not build mosques or any other place of worship. It violates our constitutional separation. Muslims built and support their own mosque as they see fit. I suspect it is a sunna mosque as most of the Muslim students are from Pakistan, Morrocco, Syria, and Lebanon.

I think maybe you fundamentally don't understand that the government of the USA cannot set educational direction for the citizens or any other student except in instances of national security. Even in that instance it is pretty lax. Most of us just really don't give a damn what the government wants us to do. That's why American citizens spend so much time bitching about the government--they can so the do.

In all honesty, I think it would be horribly counterproductive for teh State to direct the curriculum of foreign students. First, most Americans would correctly perceive that as propagandistic and irrational interference in individual affairs. Second, it would make foreign students (rightfully) suspicious of the gov's motives. It is far better to have foreign students given free access to everything possible. In that way they see more clearly what Americans take for granted and what life in a free, open society can be like.

Does it make them contemptuous of American students? I hope so. It sure as heck make me contemptuous of the lazy bastards.

Will it give foreign students hope taht they can return to tehir home countries and do a better job of democracy and freedom than we do here? I hope so. I love it when a foreign country increases the freedom of its people.

Do I hope that foreign students return to their native land and get rich out-competing us? Heck yeah. If we can't keep up that's out fault and our burden.

Culture? Why in hell would I want to inflict our culture on anybody? It is a stupid, facile, self-indulgent, narcissistic and frivolously dissipated waste of oxygen. Don't take out culture, please.

I don't think education should be free to anybody. People are contemptuous of free and easy. It should cost a lot in either money or effort, preferably both. If it costs the student a lot of effort and money they will demand an education worthy of tehir time, effort and treasure. Looking at the students in American universities today just makes me shake my head in wonder.

"Would you like fries with that?"

Bot
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post #58 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 08:50 PM
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RE: Robust Job Growth

Quote:
Botnst - 12/7/2005 9:26 PM
The USA does not build mosques or any other place of worship. It violates our constitutional separation. Muslims built and support their own mosque as they see fit. I suspect it is a sunna mosque as most of the Muslim students are from Pakistan, Morrocco, Syria, and Lebanon.

I think maybe you fundamentally don't understand that the government of the USA cannot set educational direction for the citizens or any other student except in instances of national security. Even in that instance it is pretty lax. Most of us just really don't give a damn what the government wants us to do. That's why American citizens spend so much time bitching about the government--they can so the do.

In all honesty, I think it would be horribly counterproductive for teh State to direct the curriculum of foreign students. First, most Americans would correctly perceive that as propagandistic and irrational interference in individual affairs. Second, it would make foreign students (rightfully) suspicious of the gov's motives. It is far better to have foreign students given free access to everything possible. In that way they see more clearly what Americans take for granted and what life in a free, open society can be like.

Does it make them contemptuous of American students? I hope so. It sure as heck make me contemptuous of the lazy bastards.

Will it give foreign students hope taht they can return to tehir home countries and do a better job of democracy and freedom than we do here? I hope so. I love it when a foreign country increases the freedom of its people.

Do I hope that foreign students return to their native land and get rich out-competing us? Heck yeah. If we can't keep up that's out fault and our burden.

Culture? Why in hell would I want to inflict our culture on anybody? It is a stupid, facile, self-indulgent, narcissistic and frivolously dissipated waste of oxygen. Don't take out culture, please.

I don't think education should be free to anybody. People are contemptuous of free and easy. It should cost a lot in either money or effort, preferably both. If it costs the student a lot of effort and money they will demand an education worthy of tehir time, effort and treasure. Looking at the students in American universities today just makes me shake my head in wonder.

"Would you like fries with that?"

Bot
Well said. I raise my glass to the sentiments expressed in your post.
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post #59 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-07-2005, 09:08 PM
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RE: Robust Job Growth

Quote:
Botnst - 12/7/2005 9:26 PM
The USA does not build mosques or any other place of worship. It violates our constitutional separation. Muslims built and support their own mosque as they see fit. I suspect it is a sunna mosque as most of the Muslim students are from Pakistan, Morrocco, Syria, and Lebanon.

I think maybe you fundamentally don't understand that the government of the USA cannot set educational direction for the citizens or any other student except in instances of national security. Even in that instance it is pretty lax. Most of us just really don't give a damn what the government wants us to do. That's why American citizens spend so much time bitching about the government--they can so the do.

In all honesty, I think it would be horribly counterproductive for teh State to direct the curriculum of foreign students. First, most Americans would correctly perceive that as propagandistic and irrational interference in individual affairs. Second, it would make foreign students (rightfully) suspicious of the gov's motives. It is far better to have foreign students given free access to everything possible. In that way they see more clearly what Americans take for granted and what life in a free, open society can be like.

Does it make them contemptuous of American students? I hope so. It sure as heck make me contemptuous of the lazy bastards.

Will it give foreign students hope taht they can return to tehir home countries and do a better job of democracy and freedom than we do here? I hope so. I love it when a foreign country increases the freedom of its people.

Do I hope that foreign students return to their native land and get rich out-competing us? Heck yeah. If we can't keep up that's out fault and our burden.

Culture? Why in hell would I want to inflict our culture on anybody? It is a stupid, facile, self-indulgent, narcissistic and frivolously dissipated waste of oxygen. Don't take out culture, please.

I don't think education should be free to anybody. People are contemptuous of free and easy. It should cost a lot in either money or effort, preferably both. If it costs the student a lot of effort and money they will demand an education worthy of tehir time, effort and treasure. Looking at the students in American universities today just makes me shake my head in wonder.

"Would you like fries with that?"

Bot
I actually understand and agree, but my point was why wage war while you have the ability to conquer in a positive way through education and gain from it too?
Why spend billions on death and destruction while they could have been applied for research, arts and diplomacy?
Yes, I understand the freedom of choice offered to US students but the US ought to have a program in place that parallels its State Department in power, leverage and say that specializes in educational outreach with the world.
This would have been the front that would have kept the US a shining and lasting example unlike every empire that so fare has shown us time and again how to fade out to oblivion...
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post #60 of 62 (permalink) Old 12-08-2005, 06:42 AM
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RE: Robust Job Growth

Quote:
Shabah - 12/7/2005 11:08 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 12/7/2005 9:26 PM
The USA does not build mosques or any other place of worship. It violates our constitutional separation. Muslims built and support their own mosque as they see fit. I suspect it is a sunna mosque as most of the Muslim students are from Pakistan, Morrocco, Syria, and Lebanon.

I think maybe you fundamentally don't understand that the government of the USA cannot set educational direction for the citizens or any other student except in instances of national security. Even in that instance it is pretty lax. Most of us just really don't give a damn what the government wants us to do. That's why American citizens spend so much time bitching about the government--they can so the do.

In all honesty, I think it would be horribly counterproductive for teh State to direct the curriculum of foreign students. First, most Americans would correctly perceive that as propagandistic and irrational interference in individual affairs. Second, it would make foreign students (rightfully) suspicious of the gov's motives. It is far better to have foreign students given free access to everything possible. In that way they see more clearly what Americans take for granted and what life in a free, open society can be like.

Does it make them contemptuous of American students? I hope so. It sure as heck make me contemptuous of the lazy bastards.

Will it give foreign students hope taht they can return to tehir home countries and do a better job of democracy and freedom than we do here? I hope so. I love it when a foreign country increases the freedom of its people.

Do I hope that foreign students return to their native land and get rich out-competing us? Heck yeah. If we can't keep up that's out fault and our burden.

Culture? Why in hell would I want to inflict our culture on anybody? It is a stupid, facile, self-indulgent, narcissistic and frivolously dissipated waste of oxygen. Don't take out culture, please.

I don't think education should be free to anybody. People are contemptuous of free and easy. It should cost a lot in either money or effort, preferably both. If it costs the student a lot of effort and money they will demand an education worthy of tehir time, effort and treasure. Looking at the students in American universities today just makes me shake my head in wonder.

"Would you like fries with that?"

Bot
I actually understand and agree, but my point was why wage war while you have the ability to conquer in a positive way through education and gain from it too?
Why spend billions on death and destruction while they could have been applied for research, arts and diplomacy?
Yes, I understand the freedom of choice offered to US students but the US ought to have a program in place that parallels its State Department in power, leverage and say that specializes in educational outreach with the world.
This would have been the front that would have kept the US a shining and lasting example unlike every empire that so fare has shown us time and again how to fade out to oblivion...
1. History has amply demonstrated that only good people are susceptible to change through negotiation and education.

2. Bad people view attempts at negotiation and education as weakness.

3. Bad people should be stopped from hurting good people.

4. The middle east is the source of energy that has given this planet prosperity never before seen in human history.

5. Allowing a homocidal megalomaniac to control the prosperity of the planet is globally suicidal.

6. It is cheaper by far to depose him and pay billions in reconstruction efforts than it would be to recover from a planetary depression and mass starvation.

7. Will the attempt at democratization fail? Probably. I'd rather it succeed because the Arab world needs to come out of the middle ages of despotism and theocracy. As Lebanon has tried to do and may succeed in this latest attempt.

8. Whether democratization fails or succeed, one thing is certain: The world has gotten the message that messing with the fuel supply is a dangerous political adventure.

I'd prefer that the United States not engage in educating people as a function of governmental policy. That is propaganda.


B
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