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post #61 of 99 (permalink) Old 12-03-2005, 01:27 PM
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RE: "I destroy life"

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azimuth - 12/2/2005 10:51 PM

Do you consult "Dear Abby" for financial advice too?
Yes. I'm not smart like you.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #62 of 99 (permalink) Old 12-03-2005, 01:52 PM
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RE: "I destroy life"

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kvining - 12/3/2005 3:16 PM
It doesn't make any difference. According to the COTUS, a person has to be physically born somehow in order to become a citizen. It was done this way to prevent people from claiming some right of hereditary citizenship. In addition, the 14th Amendment and the 4th Amendment also contain language that give each person the ulimate right over his or her destiny. Then there is also the 13th, which prohibits people from being employeed against their will, and motherhood is indeed employment. Despite what the detractors say, the constitutional arguments for abortion are very, very strong. It is the ultimate Catch 22 - morally your side is in many ways right, while legally the pro-choice side is for the most part 100% correct. To me it comes down to whether or not a 3/4 majority can be found to change what has become the law of the land due to a correct interpretation of the COTUS. The Founders envisioned a land where we all chose our own destiny, and that is that.
I think the burden of proof lies with the anti-abortionists to prove the constitution prohibits a woman access to a medical service she desires. From every reading of the document I have been through, I never once recalled any specifics about rights to have abortions. Or to be able to buy big, gas guzzling cars. Instead, the Constitution limits the government's ability to restrict the rights of American citizens to life, liberty and the pusuit of happiness. In no case is the Government granted a specific right to restict a woman's access to a medical facility for a specific medical service in any version of the Constitution I have read. It does specifically prohibit the government from issuing laws based on one religion and imposing that religion's outlook on other Americans, whether or not they subscribe to that religion.

Az, this is a religious issue. If you are so set against abortion for whatever reasons, make sure you train you kids in your philosophy so they do not get into a situation where abortion would be a tempting way of addressing the long term consequences of their situation. Be happy if you manage to instill this outlook in your kids, and leave the rest of the country alone.

I support women having access to this medical service. I do not think the anguish most women go through to reach a conclusion to have an abortion should be disregarded, or belittled, and I think men should butt out of the guilt dispensing role they seem to have adopted. Drawing people into a conversation on the subject with "I destroy life" as the opening line, and then, to get a response, taunting people to make a stance ignores the real issue here and has obviously not been too successful. Abortions are a symptom of a problem. They are not the problem. Banning abortions will not only not address the problem, it will make things worse. Jim
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post #63 of 99 (permalink) Old 12-03-2005, 02:03 PM Thread Starter
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RE: "I destroy life"

Quote:
JimSmith - 12/3/2005 3:52 PM

Quote:
kvining - 12/3/2005 3:16 PM
It doesn't make any difference. According to the COTUS, a person has to be physically born somehow in order to become a citizen. It was done this way to prevent people from claiming some right of hereditary citizenship. In addition, the 14th Amendment and the 4th Amendment also contain language that give each person the ulimate right over his or her destiny. Then there is also the 13th, which prohibits people from being employeed against their will, and motherhood is indeed employment. Despite what the detractors say, the constitutional arguments for abortion are very, very strong. It is the ultimate Catch 22 - morally your side is in many ways right, while legally the pro-choice side is for the most part 100% correct. To me it comes down to whether or not a 3/4 majority can be found to change what has become the law of the land due to a correct interpretation of the COTUS. The Founders envisioned a land where we all chose our own destiny, and that is that.
I think the burden of proof lies with the anti-abortionists to prove the constitution prohibits a woman access to a medical service she desires. From every reading of the document I have been through, I never once recalled any specifics about rights to have abortions. Or to be able to buy big, gas guzzling cars. Instead, the Constitution limits the government's ability to restrict the rights of American citizens to life, liberty and the pusuit of happiness. In no case is the Government granted a specific right to restict a woman's access to a medical facility for a specific medical service in any version of the Constitution I have read. It does specifically prohibit the government from issuing laws based on one religion and imposing that religion's outlook on other Americans, whether or not they subscribe to that religion.

Az, this is a religious issue. If you are so set against abortion for whatever reasons, make sure you train you kids in your philosophy so they do not get into a situation where abortion would be a tempting way of addressing the long term consequences of their situation. Be happy if you manage to instill this outlook in your kids, and leave the rest of the country alone.

I support women having access to this medical service. I do not think the anguish most women go through to reach a conclusion to have an abortion should be disregarded, or belittled, and I think men should butt out of the guilt dispensing role they seem to have adopted. Drawing people into a conversation on the subject with "I destroy life" as the opening line, and then, to get a response, taunting people to make a stance ignores the real issue here and has obviously not been too successful. Abortions are a symptom of a problem. They are not the problem. Banning abortions will not only not address the problem, it will make things worse. Jim
This was not necessarily about abortion, though the device was an article on abortion. I botched the plan with a premature emission........not typical for a man my age[:D]

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post #64 of 99 (permalink) Old 12-03-2005, 04:02 PM
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RE: "I destroy life"

Abortion is not an issue in my society (which expalins my limited point of view on it) but there are thoughts that humans share everywhere.

* 'Legal or illegal?' and 'Ethical or non-ethical' are completely different arguments. If abortion is legalised everywhere, does it mean it's ethical to kill a foeus or (any living human) for no big big reason? No, I don't think so.

* Is a foetus a living human or not? What do scientists and doctors say about that? Is what they now say (we know they have different opinions) acceptable in the next few years? Is it concrete science? No, even Maths is not concrete.

* Suicide is illegal! It's a persons own life. If one is not allowed to kill oneself then how come the same one is allowed to kill another? A helpless other human.

* A woman's right to a (supposedly) better life versus a foetus right to a life. I'll vote for the poor little one and pray for the new mum to enjoy motherhood (not just irresponsible intimacy) and if I was a law maker I'll hold the new dad accountable for his acts first and foremost. All I mean is the baby has the right to a loving family of father and mother (and later sibling if possible).
Too idealistic? No, we are getting more selfish to see other people's rights compared to ours. Otherwise use contraceptives.

* Still, I know a pregnant teenager carries the burden of an unplanned pregnancy alone. This is sad because it's not only her fault. I know it happens to grown ups too, some even married, when men don't want a baby and women either abort or face the cosequences. Or when a woman's career is so important to her that she can kill for it. Or, or, ..



These were my thoughts.

What my faith (Islam) says is a woman can't electively abort a pregnancy unless advised by an honest, skillful physician for an apparent health problem that might endanger her life or put her at risk. Contraceptives are OK but having many children is encouraged.

We also believe that four months into pregnancy, a foetus becomes a living human with rights and everything. Why fourth months into pregnancy? because Allah told us so and spared us the scientific debate that was not even possible 14 centuries ago.









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post #65 of 99 (permalink) Old 12-03-2005, 04:21 PM
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RE: "I destroy life"

Quote:
Tahloube - 12/3/2005 6:02 PM

Abortion is not an issue in my society (which expalins my limited point of view on it) but there are thoughts that humans share everywhere.

* 'Legal or illegal?' and 'Ethical or non-ethical' are completely different arguments. If abortion is legalised everywhere, does it mean it's ethical to kill a foeus or (any living human) for no big big reason? No, I don't think so.

* Is a foetus a living human or not? What do scientists and doctors say about that? Is what they now say (we know they have different opinions) acceptable in the next few years? Is it concrete science? No, even Maths is not concrete.

* Suicide is illegal! It's a persons own life. If one is not allowed to kill oneself then how come the same one is allowed to kill another? A helpless other human.

* A woman's right to a (supposedly) better life versus a foetus right to a life. I'll vote for the poor little one and pray for the new mum to enjoy motherhood (not just irresponsible intimacy) and if I was a law maker I'll hold the new dad accountable for his acts first and foremost. All I mean is the baby has the right to a loving family of father and mother (and later sibling if possible).
Too idealistic? No, we are getting more selfish to see other people's rights compared to ours. Otherwise use contraceptives.

* Still, I know a pregnant teenager carries the burden of an unplanned pregnancy alone. This is sad because it's not only her fault. I know it happens to grown ups too, some even married, when men don't want a baby and women either abort or face the cosequences. Or when a woman's career is so important to her that she can kill for it. Or, or, ..



These were my thoughts.

What my faith (Islam) says is a woman can't electively abort a pregnancy unless advised by an honest, skillful physician for an apparent health problem that might endanger her life or put her at risk. Contraceptives are OK but having many children is encouraged.

We also believe that four months into pregnancy, a foetus becomes a living human with rights and everything. Why fourth months into pregnancy? because Allah told us so and spared us the scientific debate that was not even possible 14 centuries ago.








I agree on most points except when it comes to the health of the mother. I think the mother should have that choice if her life is in danger... Of course this decision must be taken seriously and most importantly as early as possible. That's why people should not shy away from medical examination whenever there is an eminent pregnancy.
What good can a sick or dying mother be if the featus takes priority?
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post #66 of 99 (permalink) Old 12-03-2005, 04:52 PM
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RE: "I destroy life"

I never saw the point of arguing this issue. There will never be an answer, solution or decision that will ever satisfy everyone.

Freude am fahren!
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post #67 of 99 (permalink) Old 12-03-2005, 04:58 PM
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RE: "I destroy life"

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snips - 12/3/2005 6:52 PM

I never saw the point of arguing this issue. There will never be an answer, solution or decision that will ever satisfy everyone.
Fair enough, but what if you were confronted with a situation where you had an input, say you ended up being the potential father. What would be YOUR take? I agree no answer is good for all people but you have to think of your contengencies...
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post #68 of 99 (permalink) Old 12-03-2005, 05:04 PM
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RE: "I destroy life"

Is the baby in question American or Muslim? [:D]

(Please don't say 'both' or my head will explode.)

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #69 of 99 (permalink) Old 12-03-2005, 05:05 PM
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RE: "I destroy life"

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GermanStar - 12/3/2005 7:04 PM

Is the baby in question American or Muslim? [:D]
LOL very very funny GS[:D]

I think Az will have the ULTIMATE solution/answer, let's see his take on this....
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post #70 of 99 (permalink) Old 12-03-2005, 05:10 PM
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RE: "I destroy life"

Quote:
Shabah - 12/3/2005 4:58 PM

Quote:
snips - 12/3/2005 6:52 PM

I never saw the point of arguing this issue. There will never be an answer, solution or decision that will ever satisfy everyone.
Fair enough, but what if you were confronted with a situation where you had an input, say you ended up being the potential father. What would be YOUR take? I agree no answer is good for all people but you have to think of your contengencies...
I know girls that treat abortions like going to Starbucks "Whoops, I better go get scraped!" yet I know people who get all fire and brimstone about the issue.

The problem with this issue is there isn't really facts, it's just opinions. I don't think it's right for me to decide what is right for others, but on the same token I don't think people should treat it as just something you do regularly. I am yet to find an unbiased information source about the issue, and until then I will not come to a full conclusion.

Freude am fahren!
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