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post #51 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-24-2005, 09:15 PM
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RE: Bush lied, your kid died

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chiphomme - 11/24/2005 3:55 PM

No I'm saying there is a huge difference between being mistaken and lying. And it is truly grotesque that anyone would have the nerve to point fingers at GWB when they too believed Saddam had stockpiles.
BTW, where did all the WMDs go? They still haven't been accounted for.
He wasn't mistaken -- he was uninterested in the truth. All he had to do was listen to the U.N. inspectors and wait 'til they had finished their job. Instead he dismissed their findings and rushed ahead with this invasion without cause.

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chiphomme - 11/24/2005 3:55 PM
As far as Saddam being no threat you are just flat out wrong. Read the Deulfer report, look into the mass graves, the plight of the Kurds and Marsh Arabs, and the fact a low grade war had to be maintain to restrain the Sunni Baathists from slaughtering the Shiites and Kurds. Look at the two countries he invaded, the terrorists ties he maintained, the attempted assassination of a US President, etc..
So you were in personal fear for your safety from Saddam? If you just want to play world cop, then you can foot the bill. Personally, I'm not interested. He was no threat to me.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #52 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-24-2005, 09:30 PM
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RE: Bush lied, your kid died

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GermanStar - 11/24/2005 11:15 PM

Quote:
chiphomme - 11/24/2005 3:55 PM

No I'm saying there is a huge difference between being mistaken and lying. And it is truly grotesque that anyone would have the nerve to point fingers at GWB when they too believed Saddam had stockpiles.
BTW, where did all the WMDs go? They still haven't been accounted for.
He wasn't mistaken -- he was uninterested in the truth. All he had to do was listen to the U.N. inspectors and wait 'til they had finished their job. Instead he dismissed their findings and rushed ahead with this invasion without cause.

Quote:
chiphomme - 11/24/2005 3:55 PM
As far as Saddam being no threat you are just flat out wrong. Read the Deulfer report, look into the mass graves, the plight of the Kurds and Marsh Arabs, and the fact a low grade war had to be maintain to restrain the Sunni Baathists from slaughtering the Shiites and Kurds. Look at the two countries he invaded, the terrorists ties he maintained, the attempted assassination of a US President, etc..
So you were in personal fear for your safety from Saddam? If you just want to play world cop, then you can foot the bill. Personally, I'm not interested. He was no threat to me.

Saddam had his time to comply and he didn't.
It wasn't an open ended chapter 7 resolution.
Saddam played a game of chicken and lost.

As far as being a threat. He was, as I have pointed out and I am footing the bill (you should see my taxes).



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post #53 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-24-2005, 10:06 PM
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RE: Bush lied, your kid died

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GermanStar - 11/24/2005 11:05 PM

In my opinion, McCain has sold himself out for the purpose of garnering support from the GOP for a presidential bid in '08. And yes, I do think less of the man for it.
So, before he kowtowed, he was a bright, articulate, reasonable, honorable man. Then ambition caused him to sell his honor short. He sold everything he gained from being imprisoned and tortured, everything from his military honors and rank, everything from his experience as a senator.

How is that possible? Doesn't it mean that he was NOT the man you thought he was prior to this embrace of blind ambition? In other words, he was no better a man than any other politician. He has always been the same man but your perception has changed.

What has changed your perception? And if your perception is easily fooled, in what other instances might it also be fooled?

This is why I NEVER support a person. Instead, I support policy. Conflating the two will always result in betrayal.

To me, McCain is the same man that he has always been--a politician.

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post #54 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-24-2005, 10:31 PM
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RE: Bush lied, your kid died

I have to agree with Bot on this one. McCain became a politician, and while he is much more earnest than most, he is still a politician, by choice. Thus, he is can never be considered pure and honest to the core. What he does, however, can be judged on its merits though. Jim
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post #55 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-24-2005, 10:36 PM
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RE: Bush lied, your kid died

It's a paradox.

We want politicians to be pure and constant.

But the only politicians that are pure and constant are zealots and fanatics.

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post #56 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-24-2005, 10:42 PM
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RE: Bush lied, your kid died

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JimSmith - 11/24/2005 10:31 PM

I have to agree with Bot on this one. McCain became a politician, and while he is much more earnest than most, he is still a politician, by choice. Thus, he is can never be considered pure and honest to the core. What he does, however, can be judged on its merits though. Jim
No doubt. Where I do disagree is Bot's apparent assessment of sleazical equality. For example, I couldn't support Marion Barry or David Duke for POTUS, regardless of policy. IOW, I do believe that some sleazeballs are better than others. Where I generally laud McCain is in the man's relative disregard for partisanship. This whole 'us and them' mentality rampant in U.S. politics is nothing short of blatant imbecilicism. The idiots on the Left and the idiots on the Right must be made to realize that we're all better off if this wildly swinging pendulum just comes to rest.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #57 of 57 (permalink) Old 11-24-2005, 10:46 PM
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RE: Bush lied, your kid died

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GermanStar - 11/25/2005 12:42 AM

Quote:
JimSmith - 11/24/2005 10:31 PM

I have to agree with Bot on this one. McCain became a politician, and while he is much more earnest than most, he is still a politician, by choice. Thus, he is can never be considered pure and honest to the core. What he does, however, can be judged on its merits though. Jim
No doubt. Where I do disagree is Bot's apparent assessment of sleazical equality. For example, I couldn't support Marion Barry or David Duke for POTUS, regardless of policy. IOW, I do believe that some sleazeballs are better than others. Where I generally laud McCain is in the man's relative disregard for partisanship. This whole 'us and them' mentality rampant in U.S. politics is nothing short of blatant imbecilicism. The idiots on the Left and the idiots on the Right must be made to realize that we're all better off if this wildly swinging pendulum just comes to rest.
I have to agree with you to this degree: Marion Berry and David Duke have established public records that, when placed alongside McCain's are just f-ing trash.

So I think a strongly negative record is important. An ambiguous record isn't much use and a positive record, WTF does that mean, positive?

B
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