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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-21-2005, 05:50 AM
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RE: Mercenaries in action

Quote:
Shabah - 11/20/2005 9:17 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 11/20/2005 9:12 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 11/20/2005 9:08 PM

Are your civilians authorized to do this while not defending themselves? The dude was placed there by a heli with his spoter then they went ona war for themselves. Oh and for fun shoots at moving vehicles that were passing by...
Is there any court that will take them in? or is this legal in your eyes? I am sure it is, as long as they are Americans...
Oh, is that what is going on? I'm impressed that you can tell so much.

As I understand it. civilians occupy a grey zone. Some of them are under contract to the military or CIA. Technically, they are accountable to US laws, local laws, and the Geneva Conventions. If they are not under contract, they are in a dicey position. They are subject to local laws but not the Geneva Conventions or American law.
hanks for the clariication Bot. So what do you think of their actions?
Without having more information than what is included in a video of questionable origin and quality it is not easy to render a verdict in the matter. But if we take the video in context by itself, assume its accuracy, and assume that the sniper is shooting live rounds and unarmed civilians then there is no defense for their actions and they should be brought to justince in a court of law.
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-21-2005, 12:38 PM
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RE: Mercenaries in action

Quote:
430 - 11/21/2005 7:50 AM

Quote:
Shabah - 11/20/2005 9:17 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 11/20/2005 9:12 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 11/20/2005 9:08 PM

Are your civilians authorized to do this while not defending themselves? The dude was placed there by a heli with his spoter then they went ona war for themselves. Oh and for fun shoots at moving vehicles that were passing by...
Is there any court that will take them in? or is this legal in your eyes? I am sure it is, as long as they are Americans...
Oh, is that what is going on? I'm impressed that you can tell so much.

As I understand it. civilians occupy a grey zone. Some of them are under contract to the military or CIA. Technically, they are accountable to US laws, local laws, and the Geneva Conventions. If they are not under contract, they are in a dicey position. They are subject to local laws but not the Geneva Conventions or American law.
hanks for the clariication Bot. So what do you think of their actions?
Without having more information than what is included in a video of questionable origin and quality it is not easy to render a verdict in the matter. But if we take the video in context by itself, assume its accuracy, and assume that the sniper is shooting live rounds and unarmed civilians then there is no defense for their actions and they should be brought to justince in a court of law.
Yeah but Shabah is from that region and he is used to getting fed all this crap that if you see a westerner sticking gum underneath a table it appears on Al Jazeera that evening as "American cught planting plastic explosives".
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-21-2005, 12:48 PM
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RE: Mercenaries in action

Wow. I wonder why they would feel that way?



Perhaps we are shitting on them a little too much?


Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-21-2005, 01:07 PM
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RE: Mercenaries in action

Hey KV that is not the standard practice for American Soldiers. It is the result of poor leadership and a handful of bad apples that have been dealt with. You keep buying into this crap that the US Military tortures each detainees and your as big a quack as I figured you to be. You know the process a soldier has to go through before they can even discharge their weapon? These guys could be getting shot at and they still need authorization before they engage the shooters. No other military in the world follows such strick guidlines. I actually wished they didn't have them but wacko's like you who cry "child killer" evertime one bullit strays at a civilian created this whole mess. Have you fired up that oven yet?
It's funny how you kooks keep posting those Abu Ghraib pictures. Find something more original just like the New York Times it's getting old!
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-21-2005, 01:08 PM
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RE: Mercenaries in action

Once again we see just a short window in to
a situation we know nothing about, but what
they want us to see in the video.

I see or hear nothing to indicate they are civilians/merc’s.
If they are, do you think they just decided to pick that site
as a turkey shoot? Doubtful.
You can hear them say they are receiving return fire
and also they spot a guy with what appears to be a RPG.

I know that a lot of Iraq civilians have them mounted over the
fireplace mantel.

Shooting at the vehicles, if that’s what they are doing who’s
to say, said vehicles aren’t fleeing the position being fired at?
post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-21-2005, 01:14 PM
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RE: Mercenaries in action

Quote:
supr_duc1 - 11/21/2005 3:07 PM

Hey KV that is not the standard practice for American Soldiers. It is the result of poor leadership and a handful of bad apples that have been dealt with. You keep buying into this crap that the US Military tortures each detainees and your as big a quack as I figured you to be. You know the process a soldier has to go through before they can even discharge their weapon? These guys could be getting shot at and they still need authorization before they engage the shooters. No other military in the world follows such strick guidlines. I actually wished they didn't have them but wacko's like you who cry "child killer" evertime one bullit strays at a civilian created this whole mess. Have you fired up that oven yet?
It's funny how you kooks keep posting those Abu Ghraib pictures. Find something more original just like the New York Times it's getting old!
A.C.L.U. Presents Accusations of Serious Abuse of Iraqi Civilians
By NEIL A. LEWIS

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/25/international/middleeast/25abuse.html?
ex=1132722000&en=a5da9c71e426ad03&ei=5070&hp

Published: January 25, 2005


WASHINGTON, Jan. 24 - The American Civil Liberties Union released documents on Monday describing complaints of serious abuse of Iraqi civilians, including reports of electric shocks and forced sodomy, and accused the military of not thoroughly investigating the cases.

The documents list dozens of allegations of abuse at American detention centers - the use of cigarettes to burn prisoners, aggressive dogs, electric shocks, sexual humiliation and beatings - that began at about the same time such acts were occurring at Abu Ghraib prison.

But it is not always clear whether every case described is a new incident; many details, including the names of victims and of the accused, were blacked out before the documents were provided to the A.C.L.U. as part of its litigation.

Jameel Jaffer, a lawyer for the organization, said gaps in the files made it difficult to draw any definite conclusions about a particular case. "But overall there does seem to be a clear pattern here, and that is that it is difficult to say the government was aggressive in investigating these allegations of abuse," he said.

Lt. Col. Pamela Hart, an Army spokeswoman, declined to discuss any particular case mentioned in the documents. But she said, "The Army has aggressively investigated all credible allegations of detainee abuse and we've held soldiers accountable for their actions."

The documents list several sites where abuses are reported to have taken place, many of them at the detention center at Adhamiya Palace, one of Saddam Hussein's villas in Baghdad. The documents contain allegations from detainees about being abused and statements from American contractors who said they saw the effects of beatings.

In one case, a detainee said that while at Adhamiya Palace, his nose was pinched while water was poured down his throat, a wooden stick was inserted forcefully into his anus and electric shock was applied to his genitals. Some of the allegations were directed against Iraqi policemen. One contractor who said he was assigned to screen detainees brought to Abu Ghraib said that many who had come from Adhamiya arrived with serious injuries, including one boy with a bleeding rectum. He said the boy had told him that an Iraqi policeman had sodomized him with a soda bottle and that American soldiers were present.

Most of the previously undisclosed allegations concern the early months of last year, while some are said to have occurred as recently as July. The more than 4,000 pages of documents were released by the Army in response to a lawsuit brought by the American Civil Liberties Union and other groups that have accused American forces of serious abuse, even torture, in treating detainees.

The new documents show that some allegations of assault were investigated and soldiers were disciplined. Mr. Jaffer, of the A.C.L.U., said that in the more than 50 cases mentioned, military investigators had ruled in all but a few that there was insufficient evidence to proceed.

The new accusations generally concern the behavior of American Special Forces, as opposed to prison guards or interrogators, who have been accused at Abu Ghraib.

The files released on Monday concerned only cases that had been resolved by military investigators; there may be other cases still under investigation.

Colonel Hart said that more than 300 criminal investigators had looked into accusations of mistreatment of detainees and that more than 100 military members had been disciplined. "The Army's record of investigating detainee abuse continues to be thorough and fair," she said.





Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-21-2005, 01:29 PM
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RE: Mercenaries in action

Quote:
Shabah - 11/20/2005 8:17 PM



hanks for the clariication Bot.
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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-21-2005, 01:31 PM
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RE: Mercenaries in action

Quote:
supr_duc1 - 11/21/2005 3:07 PM

Hey KV that is not the standard practice for American Soldiers. It is the result of poor leadership and a handful of bad apples that have been dealt with. You keep buying into this crap that the US Military tortures each detainees and your as big a quack as I figured you to be. You know the process a soldier has to go through before they can even discharge their weapon? These guys could be getting shot at and they still need authorization before they engage the shooters. No other military in the world follows such strick guidlines. I actually wished they didn't have them but wacko's like you who cry "child killer" evertime one bullit strays at a civilian created this whole mess. Have you fired up that oven yet?
It's funny how you kooks keep posting those Abu Ghraib pictures. Find something more original just like the New York Times it's getting old!

New Accounts of Torture by U.S. Troops
Soldiers Say Failures by Command Led to Abuse

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2005/09/25/usint11776.htm

(New York, September 24, 2005) -- U.S. Army troops subjected Iraqi detainees to severe beatings and other torture at a base in central Iraq from 2003 through 2004, often under orders or with the approval of superior officers, according to accounts from soldiers released by Human Rights Watch today.

The administration demanded that soldiers extract information from detainees without telling them what was allowed and what was forbidden. Yet when abuses inevitably followed, the leadership blamed the soldiers in the field instead of taking responsibility.

Tom Malinowski, Washington Director of Human Rights Watch

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Leadership Failure: Firsthand Accounts of Torture of Iraqi Detainees by the U.S. Army’s 82nd Airborne Division
Report, September 25, 2005

Recent Human Rights Watch Work on the Torture and Abuse of U.S. Detainees
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The new report, “Leadership Failure: Firsthand Accounts of Torture of Iraqi Detainees by the U.S. Army's 82nd Airborne Division,� provides soldiers’ accounts of abuses against detainees committed by troops of the 82nd Airborne stationed at Forward Operating Base Mercury (FOB Mercury), near Fallujah.

Three U.S. army personnel—two sergeants and a captain—describe routine, severe beatings of prisoners and other cruel and inhumane treatment.
In one incident, a soldier is alleged to have broken a detainee’s leg with a baseball bat. Detainees were also forced to hold five-gallon jugs of water with their arms outstretched and perform other acts until they passed out. Soldiers also applied chemical substances to detainees’ skin and eyes, and subjected detainees to forced stress positions, sleep deprivation, and extremes of hot and cold. Detainees were also stacked into human pyramids and denied food and water. The soldiers also described abuses they witnessed or participated in at another base in Iraq and during earlier deployments in Afghanistan.

According to the soldiers' accounts, U.S. personnel abused detainees as part of the military interrogation process or merely to “relieve stress.� In numerous cases, they said that abuse was specifically ordered by Military Intelligence personnel before interrogations, and that superior officers within and outside of Military Intelligence knew about the widespread abuse. The accounts show that abuses resulted from civilian and military failures of leadership and confusion about interrogation standards and the application of the Geneva Conventions. They contradict claims by the Bush administration that detainee abuses by U.S. forces abroad have been infrequent, exceptional and unrelated to policy.

“The administration demanded that soldiers extract information from detainees without telling them what was allowed and what was forbidden,� said Tom Malinowski, Washington Director of Human Rights Watch. “Yet when abuses inevitably followed, the leadership blamed the soldiers in the field instead of taking responsibility.�

Soldiers referred to abusive techniques as “smoking� or “fucking� detainees, who are known as “PUCs,� or Persons Under Control. “Smoking a PUC� referred to exhausting detainees with physical exercises (sometimes to the point of unconsciousness) or forcing detainees to hold painful positions. “Fucking a PUC� detainees referred to beating or torturing them severely. The soldiers said that Military Intelligence personnel regularly instructed soldiers to “smoke� detainees before interrogations.

One sergeant told Human Rights Watch: “Everyone in camp knew if you wanted to work out your frustration you show up at the PUC tent. In a way it was sport… One day [a sergeant] shows up and tells a PUC to grab a pole. He told him to bend over and broke the guy’s leg with a mini Louisville Slugger, a metal bat.�

The officer who spoke to Human Rights Watch made persistent efforts over 17 months to raise concerns about detainee abuse with his chain of command and to obtain clearer rules on the proper treatment of detainees, but was consistently told to ignore abuses and to “consider your career.� He believes he was not taken seriously until he approached members of Congress to raise his concerns. When the officer made an appointment this month with Senate staff members of Senators John McCain and John Warner, he says his commanding officer denied him a pass to leave his base. The officer was interviewed several days later by investigators with the Army Criminal Investigative Division and Inspector General’s office, and there were reports that the military has launched a formal investigation. Repeated efforts by Human Rights Watch to contact the 82nd Airborne Division regarding the major allegations in the report received no response.

The soldiers’ accounts show widespread confusion among military units about the legal standards applicable to detainees. One of the sergeants quoted in the report described how abuse of detainees was accepted among military units:

“Trends were accepted. Leadership failed to provide clear guidance so we just developed it. They wanted intel [intelligence]. As long as no PUCs came up dead it happened. We heard rumors of PUCs dying so we were careful. We kept it to broken arms and legs and shit.�

The soldiers’ accounts challenge the Bush administration’s claim that military and civilian leadership did not play a role in abuses. The officer quoted in the report told Human Rights Watch that he believes the abuses he witnessed in Iraq and Afghanistan were caused in part by President Bush’s 2002 decision not to apply Geneva Conventions protection to detainees captured in Afghanistan:

“[In Afghanistan,] I thought that the chain on command all the way up to the National Command Authority [President Bush and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld] had made it a policy that we were going to interrogate these guys harshly. . . . We knew where the Geneva Conventions drew the line, but then you get that confusion when the Sec Def [Secretary of Defense] and the President make that statement [that Geneva did not apply to detainees] . . . . Had I thought we were following the Geneva Conventions as an officer I would have investigated what was clearly a very suspicious situation.�

The officer said that Bush’s decision on Afghanistan affected detention and interrogation policy in Iraq: “None of the unit policies changed. Iraq was cast as part of the War on Terror, not a separate entity in and of itself but a part of a larger war.�

As one sergeant cited in the report, discussing his duty in Iraq, said: “The Geneva Conventions is questionable and we didn’t know we were supposed to be following it. . . . [W]e were never briefed on the Geneva Conventions.�

Human Rights Watch called on the military to conduct a thorough investigation of the abuses described in the report, as well as all other cases of reported abuse. It urged that this investigation not be limited to low-ranking military personnel, as has been the case in previous investigations, but to examine the responsibility throughout the military chain of command.

Human Rights Watch repeated its call for the administration to appoint a special counsel to conduct a widespread criminal investigation of military and civilian personnel, including higher level officials, who may be implicated in detainee abuse in Iraq, Afghanistan or elsewhere.

Human Rights Watch also called on the U.S. Congress to create a special commission, along the lines of the 9/11 commission, to investigate prisoner abuse issues, and to enact proposed legislation prohibiting all forms of detainee treatment and interrogation not specifically authorized by the U.S. Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation and all treatment prohibited by the Convention Against Torture.

“When an experienced Army officer goes out of his way to say something’s systematically wrong, it’s time for the administration and Congress to listen,� Malinowski said. “That means allowing a genuinely independent investigation of the policy decisions that led to the abuse and communicating clear, lawful interrogation rules to the troops on the ground.�

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-21-2005, 01:38 PM
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RE: Mercenaries in action

Quote:
kvining - 11/21/2005 3:14 PM

Quote:
supr_duc1 - 11/21/2005 3:07 PM

Hey KV that is not the standard practice for American Soldiers. It is the result of poor leadership and a handful of bad apples that have been dealt with. You keep buying into this crap that the US Military tortures each detainees and your as big a quack as I figured you to be. You know the process a soldier has to go through before they can even discharge their weapon? These guys could be getting shot at and they still need authorization before they engage the shooters. No other military in the world follows such strick guidlines. I actually wished they didn't have them but wacko's like you who cry "child killer" evertime one bullit strays at a civilian created this whole mess. Have you fired up that oven yet?
It's funny how you kooks keep posting those Abu Ghraib pictures. Find something more original just like the New York Times it's getting old!
A.C.L.U. Presents Accusations of Serious Abuse of Iraqi Civilians
By NEIL A. LEWIS

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/25/international/middleeast/25abuse.html?
ex=1132722000&en=a5da9c71e426ad03&ei=5070&hp

Published: January 25, 2005


WASHINGTON, Jan. 24 - The American Civil Liberties Union released documents on Monday describing complaints of serious abuse of Iraqi civilians, including reports of electric shocks and forced sodomy, and accused the military of not thoroughly investigating the cases.

The documents list dozens of allegations of abuse at American detention centers - the use of cigarettes to burn prisoners, aggressive dogs, electric shocks, sexual humiliation and beatings - that began at about the same time such acts were occurring at Abu Ghraib prison.

But it is not always clear whether every case described is a new incident; many details, including the names of victims and of the accused, were blacked out before the documents were provided to the A.C.L.U. as part of its litigation.

Jameel Jaffer, a lawyer for the organization, said gaps in the files made it difficult to draw any definite conclusions about a particular case. "But overall there does seem to be a clear pattern here, and that is that it is difficult to say the government was aggressive in investigating these allegations of abuse," he said.

Lt. Col. Pamela Hart, an Army spokeswoman, declined to discuss any particular case mentioned in the documents. But she said, "The Army has aggressively investigated all credible allegations of detainee abuse and we've held soldiers accountable for their actions."

The documents list several sites where abuses are reported to have taken place, many of them at the detention center at Adhamiya Palace, one of Saddam Hussein's villas in Baghdad. The documents contain allegations from detainees about being abused and statements from American contractors who said they saw the effects of beatings.

In one case, a detainee said that while at Adhamiya Palace, his nose was pinched while water was poured down his throat, a wooden stick was inserted forcefully into his anus and electric shock was applied to his genitals. Some of the allegations were directed against Iraqi policemen. One contractor who said he was assigned to screen detainees brought to Abu Ghraib said that many who had come from Adhamiya arrived with serious injuries, including one boy with a bleeding rectum. He said the boy had told him that an Iraqi policeman had sodomized him with a soda bottle and that American soldiers were present.

Most of the previously undisclosed allegations concern the early months of last year, while some are said to have occurred as recently as July. The more than 4,000 pages of documents were released by the Army in response to a lawsuit brought by the American Civil Liberties Union and other groups that have accused American forces of serious abuse, even torture, in treating detainees.

The new documents show that some allegations of assault were investigated and soldiers were disciplined. Mr. Jaffer, of the A.C.L.U., said that in the more than 50 cases mentioned, military investigators had ruled in all but a few that there was insufficient evidence to proceed.

The new accusations generally concern the behavior of American Special Forces, as opposed to prison guards or interrogators, who have been accused at Abu Ghraib.

The files released on Monday concerned only cases that had been resolved by military investigators; there may be other cases still under investigation.

Colonel Hart said that more than 300 criminal investigators had looked into accusations of mistreatment of detainees and that more than 100 military members had been disciplined. "The Army's record of investigating detainee abuse continues to be thorough and fair," she said.



NO WAY! The A.C.L.U said that? I can't believe it! As soon as these soldiers get back on american soil they should all be arrested, stripped nakid and paraded around as war criminals. You are right KV the American soldier are just a bunch of no good baby killers. This is again why you should just pack up and leave this country while you can. I hear Canada and France are great places to live.
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-21-2005, 01:50 PM
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RE: Mercenaries in action

They MUST be lying! And the Right is the only ones who are telling the truth!

Right...

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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