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post #21 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-15-2005, 07:55 PM
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RE: The lie we went to war on.

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GermanStar - 11/15/2005 9:52 PM

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azimuth - 11/15/2005 7:44 PM

fortunately I can multi-task. I'm supervising the activity here and playing Azimuth9 several games of tic-tac-toe simultaneously.
Must be nice. I can't chew gum and do pilates at the same time.
I understand you tend to be inflexible....

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post #22 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-15-2005, 07:55 PM Thread Starter
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RE: The lie we went to war on.

Quote:
GermanStar - 11/15/2005 9:54 PM

Quote:
Andrew2004az - 11/15/2005 7:42 PM

since you know so much about history this war isnt bad in terms of death. millions where killed by sadam for opposing him form the gassing of the kurds to political opponents..
Aren't you the political poster who was calling for an end to all political posts?
yes but shush i am going about this in a new way to prove my point.
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post #23 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-15-2005, 07:57 PM
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RE: The lie we went to war on.

Quote:
azimuth - 11/15/2005 7:55 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 11/15/2005 9:52 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 11/15/2005 7:44 PM

fortunately I can multi-task. I'm supervising the activity here and playing Azimuth9 several games of tic-tac-toe simultaneously.
Must be nice. I can't chew gum and do pilates at the same time.
I understand you tend to be inflexible....
More so than I had realized. Do tell Mrs. Azimuth to expect the bill for my hernia repair.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #24 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-15-2005, 08:02 PM
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RE: The lie we went to war on.

Quote:
Andrew2004az - 11/15/2005 8:42 PM

IF you have nothing to contribute to this then dont post we dont need your childish comments or name calling.
Nazi!!![;)]

Just kidding hey do you mind using a bit of punctuation in your posts it might help us to take you a bit more seriously and its really hard to figure out just what the hell you are trying to say pretty annoying isnt it thanks a lot for your consideration
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post #25 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-15-2005, 08:03 PM
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RE: The lie we went to war on.

Quote:
GermanStar - 11/15/2005 9:57 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 11/15/2005 7:55 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 11/15/2005 9:52 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 11/15/2005 7:44 PM

fortunately I can multi-task. I'm supervising the activity here and playing Azimuth9 several games of tic-tac-toe simultaneously.
Must be nice. I can't chew gum and do pilates at the same time.
I understand you tend to be inflexible....
More so than I had realized. Do tell Mrs. Azimuth to expect the bill for my hernia repair.
oh, isn't that typical of men?. All fun and no responsibility.

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post #26 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-15-2005, 08:03 PM
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RE: The lie we went to war on.

Quote:
Jillian80 - 11/15/2005 10:02 PM

Quote:
Andrew2004az - 11/15/2005 8:42 PM

IF you have nothing to contribute to this then dont post we dont need your childish comments or name calling.
Nazi!!![;)]

Just kidding hey do you mind using a bit of punctuation in your posts it might help us to take you a bit more seriously and its really hard to figure out just what the hell you are trying to say pretty annoying isnt it thanks a lot for your consideration
Not as annoying as being called a Nazi, asshole. Just kidding.

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post #27 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-15-2005, 08:17 PM
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RE: The lie we went to war on.

Quote:
Botnst - 11/15/2005 9:03 PM

Quote:
Jillian80 - 11/15/2005 10:02 PM

Quote:
Andrew2004az - 11/15/2005 8:42 PM

IF you have nothing to contribute to this then dont post we dont need your childish comments or name calling.
Nazi!!![;)]

Just kidding hey do you mind using a bit of punctuation in your posts it might help us to take you a bit more seriously and its really hard to figure out just what the hell you are trying to say pretty annoying isnt it thanks a lot for your consideration
Not as annoying as being called a Nazi, asshole. Just kidding.

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I like Nazi asshole better, tnuc. Just kidding.










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post #28 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-15-2005, 08:48 PM
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RE: The lie we went to war on.

tnuc?......nevermind, I got it.

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post #29 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-15-2005, 09:47 PM
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RE: The lie we went to war on.

Alright, I will bite. Your request sounds sincere, although I find it hard to believe anyone sincerely trying to look at the case for the Iraq invasion cannot see that it was based on untruthful representations of nearly every every facet of then-current intelligence reports, purposely ignored weapons inspector reports that were current and consistent right up to the moment of "Shock and Awe" and directly from Iraq, and manipulations of the American public in a very carefully crafted publicity campaign.

Quote:
Andrew2004az - 11/15/2005 9:18 PM
Why is it now democrats are saying we went on a lie? when back then they said Sadam had WMD even clinton attacked suspected WMD sites. its clearly all political.
First of all it is not only Democrats that are coming to the conclusion the President lied about Saddam's ability to mount any kind of threat to the United States, much less one that was imminent and in the form of weapons of mass destruction.

To get to the heart of the matter you have to review what was actually said and done, and what authority the people flapping their gums about whatever it was, and what they actually did, compared to what Bush did.

Clinton, for example, considered Saddam deserved no leeway for the conditions the UN authorized the United States to enforce. So, when he committed a transgression, he was fired upon. All within what was authorized by the UN and the Congress. No "boots on the ground" or other exposure of American lives beyond what the Congress had authorized in a then, and now, current and effective Resolution. No exaggeration of the circumstances or vilification of Saddam to justify exercising more force. And, as detestable as all of found Saddam then and now, and how much fun we might have found expressing those feelings, no one with the authority to commit the United States to invade Iraq did so. Because it would have immoral and illegal.

Yes, unfortunately politics getting out of hand is part of our government. Not a new condition, and not likely a temporary one either. But, without someone ready and poised to point out when you step over the line, this country would rapidly fall into the trap other nations have experienced. Like the Germans during the Nazi era. America is not immune to Nazism because of the DNA of Americans. If anything our national gene pool consists of every strain of genetic material from every good and bad source. Our immunity to turning into Nazis is the basic structure of our government, and the righteous indignation of our citizens when the government administration du Jour fails to live up to the standard.


Quote:
Andrew2004az - 11/15/2005 9:18 PM
Why would anyone send hundreds of thousands of soldiers to look for something that is not there and end up looking bad? Dont say oil since its more economical to invade other countries that are smaller and have more oil.
I have struggled with this as well. All I can believe is the adminstration was predisposed to invade Iraq, and was not as concerned about the consequences of "later" when the WMD were not going to show up, and more concerned with "now" and getting the invasion started. I think there is ample evidence that the administration does a particularly poor job of planning and executing, and lives in denial of these failures. Figuring out that the whole invasion was going to turn into the present mess ahead of time was clearly out of the picture. I have concluded they were so sure the invasion was going to result in the United States being welcomed by the grateful Iraqis, that the lack of WMD was not going to be a significant issue. We see that was wrong, and we also should be able to see the administration wanted that to be the outcome enough to justify the invasion in whatever manner would sell in Congress and on Main Street USA. Congress had already passed a resolution that prohibited an American invasion, or covert operation that put Americans on Iraqi soil, to bring about the overthrow of Saddam. 9-11 happened and it is now apparent that our present government administration saw that horrible event as an opportunity to overcome the legal barriers to invading Iraq to depose Saddam, and get on with their neocon agenda.

Quote:
Andrew2004az - 11/15/2005 9:18 PM
before the war both democrats and republicans agreed that Sadam was a danger he supported terrorist by paying them to do suicide attacks, he harbored terrorist and tortured his own people. the difference between republicans and democrats is that republicans followthrough on what they do vs democrats who start it and flip flop out in disgrace... (now putting on my industrial strength flame suit)
For anyone to actually take your request for a sincere explanation seriously, you have to learn to leave out the spontaneous regurgitation of several years old Republican Party election year rhetoric. No matter how successfully they managed to brainwash you, your case is not improved by adverising it.

Anyway, I think you mistake the judgement of a man wise enough to know when he is unsure of the facts that he also knows he must be absolutely sure about before he takes action for this lack of follow through or flip-flopping. This wisdom, lacking in the present administration, was made light of in the political campaign you learned your lines from, just as their lack of any diplomatic skills was portrayed as a strength of will and allegiance to America by belittling anything that might be done to gain international acceptance of an American agenda.

Quote:
Andrew2004az - 11/15/2005 9:18 PM
I hope you anti war guys can post some very compelling arguments besides just saying bush lied. also back it up what you have to say, if you cant do this in a civilized manor dont post.
Your demand here is a little hard to frame as a specific question. But, I assume it is that you are requesting some compelling evidence that Bush lied about the WMD story. I assume that because Bush went to Congress and got a Congressional Resolution authorizing the use of United States Armed Forces to enforce UN Security Council Resolutions needed to protect America from imminent danger posed by Saddam having WMD, and possibly Saddam passing such WMD on to terrorist who might use them against America or America's interests. So, when you ask about the invasion, and the lies, you have to get into the frame of reference Mr. Bush was forced to operate in at the time. An already passed resolution prohibited the use of such American Armed Services to oust Saddam and bring freedom to the Iraqi people, or oust Saddam and bring democracy to the Middle East. Keep that in mind.

I believe the onus is on those who, in light of there ultimately being no WMD, and there being ample evidence to counter every snippet of evidence the administration has publicly cited as their case for Saddam having WMD, including those up to minute, day by day and week by week live reports on CNN by reporters questioning actual UN weapons inspectors almost up to the point of initiating "shock and awe," believe there was a reason to invade that met the requirements set forth in the Congressional Resolution that authorized Bush to use American Armed Forces in Iraq, to demonstrate that case. The fact that many of us hope the Iraqis benefit in some way from Saddam's removal, the whole story of eliminating him because he was a bad guy, or the story of bringing democracy to the Middle East, as much as we would like to believe it is going to be a benefit to the people there, these were not legal reasons to invade. The circumstances that were authorized were very narrow. Wresting control of the WMD from Saddam and preventing Saddam from passing them on to Al-Qaeda or their ilk. Nothing else. And so, in order to go and do whatever the Bush administration thought was the prize worth lying to Americans and our allies over, that excuse was used, we were exploited and now over 2000 of our young have been killed in an illegal war that has killed many more thousands of Iraqis.

Recall that we are the United States of America and we did win the Cold War. We have the ability to tell blind beggars on the street what the exact change was that someone dropped in their pot, or took from it by observing from outer space. If you find that fantastic, go get a demo of the photos of your driveway that are available from space - I think Google does it now. These are free and I can just about make out the license plates on my car in the driveway. The government pays dearly for this service and gets a lot better quality.

We were technically capable of tracking those WMD as, according to the Bush administration, the Iraqis moved them every day and night to make fools of the dopey UN weapons inspectors. Kennedy showed the UN photos of ships in Russian ports, ships at sea and then ships in Cuban ports, followed by photos of actual missile installations in the early 1960's where the people were clearly distinguishable as either Russians or Cubans, when we made our claims leading up to the Cuban Missile Crisis. In that case, every possible diplomatic course of action to solve the problem was excercised before we went to war. And diplomacy, backed by a very apparent committment to use force if necessary, worked. No one died, and our President did not lie. Our Allies were favorably impressed and solidly supported us. The bad guys lost.

Quote:
Andrew2004az - 11/15/2005 9:18 PM
i will respect what you have to say and i hope you can do the same for me.. After all we are fighting the war on terror to allow us to have our freedom of speech and ideas.
We are in a new and more dangerous world than the one we lived in during the cold war. We spent 50 years or so in the cold war. Focussed on beating the Reds on every front. We were lucky. They engaged us in arenas where we were stronger. We won, they lost. In hindsight it wasn't even close. They were losing on day one.

The new enemy is not dumb enough to confront us as a superpower from his position as a gnat. He seeks to confront us where he has the advantage. Allowing that on our part is dumb. Like the Russians fighting us on our terms in the cold war, and losing. In case it is not yet apparent, we are losing this terror war. We are now much more isolated in the world, at a time when we can least afford to be isolated. There are more terrorists now gunning for us than ever before. I think we need to get off this cowboy movie script plan. We need to control the situation and build our relationships with our former allies. Mooning them is not the best first move. And swallowing unsupported claims of honesty in light of the data we have in our hands that says that could not be is a horrible second move. Jim
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post #30 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-15-2005, 10:17 PM
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RE: The lie we went to war on.

Quote:
Jillian80 - 11/15/2005 10:02 PM

Quote:
Andrew2004az - 11/15/2005 8:42 PM

IF you have nothing to contribute to this then dont post we dont need your childish comments or name calling.
Nazi!!![;)]

Just kidding hey do you mind using a bit of punctuation in your posts it might help us to take you a bit more seriously and its really hard to figure out just what the hell you are trying to say pretty annoying isnt it thanks a lot for your consideration
Right on! Who ever started this affectation of dropping punctuation and purposely spelling things like a gifted three year old?
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