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post #71 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-02-2005, 03:50 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Why do the actions of the past have to be judged by modern standards? It's so pointless and dishonest.

I can't stand this cringing and creeping about the history of European empires. I certainly don't feel any guilt and I don't know any normal, ordinary person who does.

As usual it's the middle class white liberals who propagate all this crap. They live in nice parts of London where the only ethnics in the neighbourhood are as well educated, cultured and well off as they are. They don't live on a council estate in Bradford where young English girls are spit on and assaulted by Muslim men who think they are whores for wearing normal clothes.

No other ethnic or religious group in the UK does this! Why?
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post #72 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-02-2005, 04:27 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Quote:
busters the boy! - 10/2/2005 5:50 PM

Why do the actions of the past have to be judged by modern standards? It's so pointless and dishonest.

I can't stand this cringing and creeping about the history of European empires. I certainly don't feel any guilt and I don't know any normal, ordinary person who does.

As usual it's the middle class white liberals who propagate all this crap. They live in nice parts of London where the only ethnics in the neighbourhood are as well educated, cultured and well off as they are. They don't live on a council estate in Bradford where young English girls are spit on and assaulted by Muslim men who think they are whores for wearing normal clothes.

No other ethnic or religious group in the UK does this! Why?
On your first point let’s assume that you are correct, whose modern standards are you referring to? Who sets them? What are they?
On your second point, say we burry the past, what about now? Who’s invading whom? Who’s got the mighty banks dictating how trade exchanges are set up? Who truly run the World Bank and the IMF?
Your middle class is indeed PC oriented, you hit that on the head and yes they don’t mingle well with the populace yet they set the rules and drive the opinions whose fault is that?
As to the assaulting Muslim men, are they of those middle class you speak of? Have they had a chance to join that group without prejudice? Are their parents any better than them? Where are the parents when they maraud in the street and spit on girls wearing normal clothes? Do you wear normal clothes?[;)]
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post #73 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-02-2005, 04:36 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Quote:
Shabah - 10/2/2005 6:27 PM

Quote:
busters the boy! - 10/2/2005 5:50 PM

Why do the actions of the past have to be judged by modern standards? It's so pointless and dishonest.

I can't stand this cringing and creeping about the history of European empires. I certainly don't feel any guilt and I don't know any normal, ordinary person who does.

As usual it's the middle class white liberals who propagate all this crap. They live in nice parts of London where the only ethnics in the neighbourhood are as well educated, cultured and well off as they are. They don't live on a council estate in Bradford where young English girls are spit on and assaulted by Muslim men who think they are whores for wearing normal clothes.

No other ethnic or religious group in the UK does this! Why?
On your first point let’s assume that you are correct, whose modern standards are you referring to? Who sets them? What are they?
On your second point, say we burry the past, what about now? Who’s invading whom? Who’s got the mighty banks dictating how trade exchanges are set up? Who truly run the World Bank and the IMF?
Your middle class is indeed PC oriented, you hit that on the head and yes they don’t mingle well with the populace yet they set the rules and drive the opinions whose fault is that?
As to the assaulting Muslim men, are they of those middle class you speak of? Have they had a chance to join that group without prejudice? Are their parents any better than them? Where are the parents when they maraud in the street and spit on girls wearing normal clothes? Do you wear normal clothes?[;)]
Can Muslims remain Muslims and live in the modern world?

B
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post #74 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-02-2005, 04:53 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Quote:
Botnst - 10/2/2005 6:36 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 10/2/2005 6:27 PM

Quote:
busters the boy! - 10/2/2005 5:50 PM

Why do the actions of the past have to be judged by modern standards? It's so pointless and dishonest.

I can't stand this cringing and creeping about the history of European empires. I certainly don't feel any guilt and I don't know any normal, ordinary person who does.

As usual it's the middle class white liberals who propagate all this crap. They live in nice parts of London where the only ethnics in the neighbourhood are as well educated, cultured and well off as they are. They don't live on a council estate in Bradford where young English girls are spit on and assaulted by Muslim men who think they are whores for wearing normal clothes.

No other ethnic or religious group in the UK does this! Why?
On your first point let’s assume that you are correct, whose modern standards are you referring to? Who sets them? What are they?
On your second point, say we burry the past, what about now? Who’s invading whom? Who’s got the mighty banks dictating how trade exchanges are set up? Who truly run the World Bank and the IMF?
Your middle class is indeed PC oriented, you hit that on the head and yes they don’t mingle well with the populace yet they set the rules and drive the opinions whose fault is that?
As to the assaulting Muslim men, are they of those middle class you speak of? Have they had a chance to join that group without prejudice? Are their parents any better than them? Where are the parents when they maraud in the street and spit on girls wearing normal clothes? Do you wear normal clothes?[;)]
Can Muslims remain Muslims and live in the modern world?

B
Is Shabah an example? I don't know, but I enjoy what this planet has to offer and respect her in return. I have strengths and weaknesses just like everyone else and I live with them however the one thing I work on everyday is learning because I will never accept ignorance as an excuse.
I don’t think one’s religion should come between that person and living in a modern world. It all depends what you define as a modern world. If it is technology for the good of humanity then that’s a valid path but if it is indoctrination and intimidation then I want nothing of it. There is always room for tradition because it is what differentiate us and make us all interesting groups. If we all have to share the same values then why not follow Mao and forget about individuality. Living in a modern world in my opinion means accepting people for who they are and what they are, learn from them, respect them and above all not interfere in what they believe or encroach on their properties.

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post #75 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-02-2005, 04:59 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Quote:
Shabah - 10/2/2005 6:53 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 10/2/2005 6:36 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 10/2/2005 6:27 PM

Quote:
busters the boy! - 10/2/2005 5:50 PM

Why do the actions of the past have to be judged by modern standards? It's so pointless and dishonest.

I can't stand this cringing and creeping about the history of European empires. I certainly don't feel any guilt and I don't know any normal, ordinary person who does.

As usual it's the middle class white liberals who propagate all this crap. They live in nice parts of London where the only ethnics in the neighbourhood are as well educated, cultured and well off as they are. They don't live on a council estate in Bradford where young English girls are spit on and assaulted by Muslim men who think they are whores for wearing normal clothes.

No other ethnic or religious group in the UK does this! Why?
On your first point let’s assume that you are correct, whose modern standards are you referring to? Who sets them? What are they?
On your second point, say we burry the past, what about now? Who’s invading whom? Who’s got the mighty banks dictating how trade exchanges are set up? Who truly run the World Bank and the IMF?
Your middle class is indeed PC oriented, you hit that on the head and yes they don’t mingle well with the populace yet they set the rules and drive the opinions whose fault is that?
As to the assaulting Muslim men, are they of those middle class you speak of? Have they had a chance to join that group without prejudice? Are their parents any better than them? Where are the parents when they maraud in the street and spit on girls wearing normal clothes? Do you wear normal clothes?[;)]
Can Muslims remain Muslims and live in the modern world?

B
Is Shabah an example? I don't know, but I enjoy what this planet has to offer and respect her in return. I have strengths and weaknesses just like everyone else and I live with them however the one thing I work on everyday is learning because I will never accept ignorance as an excuse.
I don’t think one’s religion should come between that person and living in a modern world. It all depends what you define as a modern world. If it is technology for the good of humanity then that’s a valid path but if it is indoctrination and intimidation then I want nothing of it. There is always room for tradition because it is what differentiate us and make us all interesting groups. If we all have to share the same values then why not follow Mao and forget about individuality. Living in a modern world in my opinion means accepting people for who they are and what they are, learn from them, respect them and above all not interfere in what they believe or encroach on their properties.
Can Muslims remain faithful to Islam and live in democratic, pluralistic societies?

Bot
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post #76 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-02-2005, 05:08 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Quote:
Shabah - 10/3/2005 11:27 PM

On your first point let’s assume that you are correct, whose modern standards are you referring to? Who sets them? What are they?
WHOEVER IS JUDGING!

On your second point, say we burry the past, what about now? Who’s invading whom? Who’s got the mighty banks dictating how trade exchanges are set up? Who truly run the World Bank and the IMF?
I CAN'T DEFEND THE INVASION OF IRAQ AND I WOULDN'T WANT TO. THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY DIDN'T WANT IT EITHER. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE WORLD BANK ETC AND I DON'T CARE. I CARE ABOUT MY OWN COUNTRY, WHICH IS GOING TO THE DOGS.

Your middle class is indeed PC oriented, you hit that on the head and yes they don’t mingle well with the populace yet they set the rules and drive the opinions whose fault is that?
NOT MINE! YOU HAVE TO BE WELL OFF TO BE A POLITICIAN NOWADAYS.

As to the assaulting Muslim men, are they of those middle class you speak of? Have they had a chance to join that group without prejudice? Are their parents any better than them? Where are the parents when they maraud in the street and spit on girls wearing normal clothes? Do you wear normal clothes?
[;)]
I wasn't shouting above, Shabah, I just thought the letters might come out too little to read easily.

About the assaulting Muslim men:

1. I have no idea what class they are. As they tend to live in the poorer areas I'd guess at working class (?)

2. Nobody can join another social class without prejudice, whoever they are. If I won £50,000,000 on the lottery I wouldn't be welcomed to the middle or upper classes with open arms (not that I'd want to).

3. I don't know about their parents. I do know that the first complaints about being spat on by English women* came in the late 1960's when Pakistani men started coming to Yorkshire in great numbers. Previously, the immigrants were mostly Hindu's and Sikh's from India. They did not abuse English women or girls. Why?

4. Yes, I wear normal clothes. (I'm no longer likely to inflame male passions though [V])

*These were not just in the streets. This also included Women who sunbathing in their own backyards which were overlooked by Muslim neighbours!

Again I ask: Why don't other ethnic minorities/religions do this? Nobody is more discriminated against than Blacks and they don't behave in this way!
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post #77 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-02-2005, 05:11 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Quote:
Botnst - 10/2/2005 6:59 PM

Can Muslims remain faithful to Islam and live in democratic, pluralistic societies?

Bot
Islam was meant just for that. There is a verse that says: You have your religion and I have mine. When Islam was under a more enlightened government back in the Middle Ages this was the rule albeit non-Muslims were taxed higher but they lived in peace, owned property and prospered. I can't say that for the rest of Europe at that time. Unfortunately today Moslem countries are governed by dictators that were put in place with the help of the West that made sure that no real democracy could flourish. It’s a ploy that has served the oil companies well. Any true democracy and shit will hit the fan real quick as market forces will catch up to the demand and the artificially deflated prices of raw materials including oil will tend to adjust and cause a supply issue that could bring the West to the Stone Age. The bottom line it is not economically wise to give the keys to people because the establishment will be in taters.
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post #78 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-02-2005, 05:18 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Quote:
Shabah - 10/2/2005 6:11 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 10/2/2005 6:59 PM

Can Muslims remain faithful to Islam and live in democratic, pluralistic societies?

Bot
Islam was meant just for that. There is a verse that says: You have your religion and I have mine. When Islam was under a more enlightened government back in the Middle Ages this was the rule albeit non-Muslims were taxed higher but they lived in peace, owned property and prospered. I can't say that for the rest of Europe at that time. Unfortunately today Moslem countries are governed by dictators that were put in place with the help of the West that made sure that no real democracy could flourish. It’s a ploy that has served the oil companies well. Any true democracy and shit will hit the fan real quick as market forces will catch up to the demand and the artificially deflated prices of raw materials including oil will tend to adjust and cause a supply issue that could bring the West to the Stone Age. The bottom line it is not economically wise to give the keys to people because the establishment will be in taters.

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post #79 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-02-2005, 05:22 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Quote:
busters the boy! - 10/2/2005 7:08 PM

Quote:
Shabah - 10/3/2005 11:27 PM

On your first point let’s assume that you are correct, whose modern standards are you referring to? Who sets them? What are they?
WHOEVER IS JUDGING!

On your second point, say we burry the past, what about now? Who’s invading whom? Who’s got the mighty banks dictating how trade exchanges are set up? Who truly run the World Bank and the IMF?
I CAN'T DEFEND THE INVASION OF IRAQ AND I WOULDN'T WANT TO. THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY DIDN'T WANT IT EITHER. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE WORLD BANK ETC AND I DON'T CARE. I CARE ABOUT MY OWN COUNTRY, WHICH IS GOING TO THE DOGS.

Your middle class is indeed PC oriented, you hit that on the head and yes they don’t mingle well with the populace yet they set the rules and drive the opinions whose fault is that?
NOT MINE! YOU HAVE TO BE WELL OFF TO BE A POLITICIAN NOWADAYS.

As to the assaulting Muslim men, are they of those middle class you speak of? Have they had a chance to join that group without prejudice? Are their parents any better than them? Where are the parents when they maraud in the street and spit on girls wearing normal clothes? Do you wear normal clothes?
[;)]
I wasn't shouting above, Shabah, I just thought the letters might come out too little to read easily.

About the assaulting Muslim men:

1. I have no idea what class they are. As they tend to live in the poorer areas I'd guess at working class (?)

2. Nobody can join another social class without prejudice, whoever they are. If I won £50,000,000 on the lottery I wouldn't be welcomed to the middle or upper classes with open arms (not that I'd want to).

3. I don't know about their parents. I do know that the first complaints about being spat on by English women* came in the late 1960's when Pakistani men started coming to Yorkshire in great numbers. Previously, the immigrants were mostly Hindu's and Sikh's from India. They did not abuse English women or girls. Why?

4. Yes, I wear normal clothes. (I'm no longer likely to inflame male passions though [V])

*These were not just in the streets. This also included Women who sunbathing in their own backyards which were overlooked by Muslim neighbours!

Again I ask: Why don't other ethnic minorities/religions do this? Nobody is more discriminated against than Blacks and they don't behave in this way!
It is ignorance that you will find as the denominator that set these people apart from other ethnic and religious groups. Are they guilty of bad behavior? Certainly. Not all Muslims are like that but the ones that usually immigrated were from the poorest strata and probably have no real depth and knowledge about Islam. Again I am not making excuses for them; I would ring the neck of anyone who would spit on my daughter.
I grew up deprived but that does not give me a green light to lash out and behave like a barbarian. I am sure that some of those kids are schooled in the UK but they live in a society where peer pressure is dominant and the parents have no control. Likely I had no parents so I did not have to go out off control so I can’t really pinpoint the sociological factor that leads them to behave as such.
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post #80 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-02-2005, 05:33 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Quote:
Shabah - 10/2/2005 7:11 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 10/2/2005 6:59 PM

Can Muslims remain faithful to Islam and live in democratic, pluralistic societies?

Bot
Islam was meant just for that. There is a verse that says: You have your religion and I have mine. When Islam was under a more enlightened government back in the Middle Ages this was the rule albeit non-Muslims were taxed higher but they lived in peace, owned property and prospered. I can't say that for the rest of Europe at that time. Unfortunately today Moslem countries are governed by dictators that were put in place with the help of the West that made sure that no real democracy could flourish. It’s a ploy that has served the oil companies well. Any true democracy and shit will hit the fan real quick as market forces will catch up to the demand and the artificially deflated prices of raw materials including oil will tend to adjust and cause a supply issue that could bring the West to the Stone Age. The bottom line it is not economically wise to give the keys to people because the establishment will be in taters.
I agree. The dictatorships have been cynically using Islam, just as in Europe Christianity has been used and is currently being used in the USA. A leader can wrap himself in the garb and claim (with some truth), that the secular world is trying to destroy their common faith and that this particular leader understands both the problem and the need for more religion in daily life. It works even more effectively if there is an external threat.

That explains the problem within an Islamic or Christian or Hindu or Jewish state.

I am curious about the ability of a sect (of whatever sort) to live in the secular society, but not be of the secular society. In the USA we have all sorts of fanatical Christian groups who do that. Mostly they're peaceful, like the Amish or various other Mennonite groups. Sometimes they're extremely weird and dangerous, but those are rare exceptions. Why is it that Muslims seem more likely to embrace violence than these other wacky groups?

I don't expect you to know the answer. Heck, if it was an easy answer we'd all know it and we would do something about it. What I fear is taht we will over-react. As we in the USA did toward the Japanese as an ethnic group and to the Commies, a politcal group.

Bot

("Tatters", not "taters.")

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