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post #51 of 100 (permalink) Old 09-30-2005, 06:03 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Quote:
Botnst - 9/30/2005 5:09 PM

Quote:
kvining - 9/30/2005 11:55 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 9/30/2005 1:47 AM

So, if I start a thread about tomato varieties (hypothetically speaking), how many posts will it take to get to the "Bush lied" mantra?

Bot

PS Bush didn't lie. Its just a convenient political blunt instrument. with which to bludgeon. Like calling somebody a Nazi--all the power of teh word without the necessity of proof. You guys wouldn't recognize the truth if it bit you on the ass.

PSS And I like "Betterboys."
How much proof is required beyond a stated desire to use military means to acquire the resources of another nation, such as you yourself have made, you fucking Nazi.
There's that display of analytic reason coupled with gentle persuasion that commands respect.

Bot
Tough to answer him with any sort of counter-point isn't it? Maybe because you haven't a pot to piss in when it comes to supporting the HMFNIC* with an argument based on reason? What did you define as a lie again?








*HMFNIC = Head MF Nazi In Charge, in case you were wondering....

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post #52 of 100 (permalink) Old 09-30-2005, 06:23 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Quote:
old300D - 9/30/2005 8:03 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 9/30/2005 5:09 PM

Quote:
kvining - 9/30/2005 11:55 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 9/30/2005 1:47 AM

So, if I start a thread about tomato varieties (hypothetically speaking), how many posts will it take to get to the "Bush lied" mantra?

Bot

PS Bush didn't lie. Its just a convenient political blunt instrument. with which to bludgeon. Like calling somebody a Nazi--all the power of teh word without the necessity of proof. You guys wouldn't recognize the truth if it bit you on the ass.

PSS And I like "Betterboys."
How much proof is required beyond a stated desire to use military means to acquire the resources of another nation, such as you yourself have made, you fucking Nazi.
There's that display of analytic reason coupled with gentle persuasion that commands respect.

Bot
Tough to answer him with any sort of counter-point isn't it? Maybe because you haven't a pot to piss in when it comes to supporting the HMFNIC* with an argument based on reason? What did you define as a lie again?

*HMFNIC = Head MF Nazi In Charge, in case you were wondering....
To what end? You and your puppet master are beyond reason, reduced to gibbering from a phrasebook like couple of semifossilized Stalinists in Red Square, and I'm a f**king Nazi. Great.

Bot
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post #53 of 100 (permalink) Old 09-30-2005, 07:00 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

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kvining - 9/30/2005 11:55 AM

How much proof is required beyond a stated desire to use military means to acquire the resources of another nation, such as you yourself have made, you fucking Nazi.
The use of 'military means to acquire the resources of another nation' is a manner of Imperialism not Naziism. But you don't care do you... as long as the croud cheers.
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post #54 of 100 (permalink) Old 09-30-2005, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

The use of the term, "nazi" to demonize your enemies is not aimed at the intellect. It is purely an emotional appeal. It doesn't matter if there is any truth to it; the charge, alone is enough to create the emotional response.
Emotional appeals are useful if rational, intellectual arguments are not on your side.
If the name-calling fails, then just yell louder.
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post #55 of 100 (permalink) Old 09-30-2005, 11:48 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Quote:
MS Fowler - 9/30/2005 10:03 PM

The use of the term, "nazi" to demonize your enemies is not aimed at the intellect. It is purely an emotional appeal. It doesn't matter if there is any truth to it; the charge, alone is enough to create the emotional response.
Emotional appeals are useful if rational, intellectual arguments are not on your side.
If the name-calling fails, then just yell louder.
Not exactly. The Nazi label is intended to draw attention to the purposeful use of information to numb Americans, as Hitler and his team did to the Germans, to the slow but steady erosion of what it really means to be American, all in the name of America but to serve the purposes of the few with money. I lived in Germany in the 1960s. None of the Germans I met would have voted Hitler into power after he did what he did. But before, the likelihood that he would do what he did was never apparent, never anticipated by anyone but Hitler and his cohorts. He was viewed as a German Patriot. He was going to restore Germany to its rightful leadership role in Europe. He never got into power advocating what he would do when he got into power.

America is just repeating the pattern. You "American Patriots" get so worked up when other countries criticize us. Instead, you should ask why they are criticizing us. Having lived there when the average German was still in awe of how well they were treated by America after WWII, and how grateful the Germans were that we were standing in the way of Communism sweeping over them, especially when Berlin was isolated, it is much easier to ask, I guess, why Germans have changed their view. The answer, and this is always more obvious to an outsider, is we are not the same America we were. We are changing, and the change is pretty scary to them. They find it hard to believe we don't see it.

Before you just dismiss the Nazi label on the basis of your emotional reaction, take a minute to examine the other side. Why is the world that used to admire us now filled with fear and loathing? Just for a minute don't dismiss it as irrational anti-American behavior. What changed? We may not be running concentration camps and the like, yet, but it Hitler didn't do that right off the bat either. They see us sliding down this spiral that can only mean really bad stuff for them. That causes the fear and loathing, feeling threatened by what used to be a trusted friend. Jim
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post #56 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-01-2005, 06:36 AM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Quote:
JimSmith - 10/1/2005 6:48 AM

Quote:
MS Fowler - 9/30/2005 10:03 PM

The use of the term, "nazi" to demonize your enemies is not aimed at the intellect. It is purely an emotional appeal. It doesn't matter if there is any truth to it; the charge, alone is enough to create the emotional response.
Emotional appeals are useful if rational, intellectual arguments are not on your side.
If the name-calling fails, then just yell louder.
Not exactly. The Nazi label is intended to draw attention to the purposeful use of information to numb Americans, as Hitler and his team did to the Germans, to the slow but steady erosion of what it really means to be American, all in the name of America but to serve the purposes of the few with money. I lived in Germany in the 1960s. None of the Germans I met would have voted Hitler into power after he did what he did. But before, the likelihood that he would do what he did was never apparent, never anticipated by anyone but Hitler and his cohorts. He was viewed as a German Patriot. He was going to restore Germany to its rightful leadership role in Europe. He never got into power advocating what he would do when he got into power.

America is just repeating the pattern. You "American Patriots" get so worked up when other countries criticize us. Instead, you should ask why they are criticizing us. Having lived there when the average German was still in awe of how well they were treated by America after WWII, and how grateful the Germans were that we were standing in the way of Communism sweeping over them, especially when Berlin was isolated, it is much easier to ask, I guess, why Germans have changed their view. The answer, and this is always more obvious to an outsider, is we are not the same America we were. We are changing, and the change is pretty scary to them. They find it hard to believe we don't see it.

Before you just dismiss the Nazi label on the basis of your emotional reaction, take a minute to examine the other side. Why is the world that used to admire us now filled with fear and loathing? Just for a minute don't dismiss it as irrational anti-American behavior. What changed? We may not be running concentration camps and the like, yet, but it Hitler didn't do that right off the bat either. They see us sliding down this spiral that can only mean really bad stuff for them. That causes the fear and loathing, feeling threatened by what used to be a trusted friend. Jim
Memories fade. That was a different generation. People get lazy and comfortable. Most Europeans have no memory of the barbarian at the gate, and the role of America in defeating them. American people now, I suggest, are really not that much different from those that helped liberate Europe. You current administration has made some serious strategic misjudgements regarding the ME, but on the other hand, Europeans are in the process of throwing away their western civilisation because of political correctness. There is a 'clash of civilisations' between the western world and the Islamic world, a profound ideological void, and instead of calling a spade a spade, and religious fascism religious fascism, our liberals are vying to outdo each other with their politically correct apologies for the behaviour of those who do not value human rights, and hold our version of civilisation in contempt. Europe is sleepwalking into a transformation that will see our hard-fought for freedoms profoundly challenged. For all America's faults, it is the world's best hope.
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post #57 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-01-2005, 10:30 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Quote:
Botnst - 9/30/2005 6:23 PM

Quote:
old300D - 9/30/2005 8:03 PM

Tough to answer him with any sort of counter-point isn't it? Maybe because you haven't a pot to piss in when it comes to supporting the HMFNIC* with an argument based on reason? What did you define as a lie again?

*HMFNIC = Head MF Nazi In Charge, in case you were wondering....
To what end? You and your puppet master are beyond reason, reduced to gibbering from a phrasebook like couple of semifossilized Stalinists in Red Square, and I'm a f**king Nazi. Great.

Bot
If you care to parse my words again, I wasn't calling you a nazi. I reserve that term for the US "leader", his advisors, and the blind fools that follow him. Were you assuming you fit into any of those categories?

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post #58 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-01-2005, 11:13 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

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jjl - 9/30/2005 12:23 PM

As Sam Goldwyn said 'We've all passed a lot of water since then'.

The real problem is what to do now. NOW. This whole adventure, even if the motivation was regime change and freeing the oppressed (which I rather doubt), has backfired spectacularly. I say we get out of Iraq now, build (metaphorically) a wall around the entire Arab world, support democracy in Israel, and do not trade with nations with 'human rights problems' for a start. If they threaten us with terrorist production camps, nuclear WMD development et cetera, then we respond appropriately. They should sort out their crazy theocracies themselves - I see no evidence of democracy being welcome, and it cannot be forced on them - as we are learning.
As Sam Goldwyn said “A Hospital is no place to be sick�.
Well NOW that the US is knee deep in the cesspool what can be done? Surely your solution for walling in all them Arabs is very tempting for the so enlightened Westerners like yourself. That’s exactly what Osama Benfking Laden wants! That’s exactly what most stupid youths running in the streets of Cairo, Amman, Rabat and many other Arab cities want. Oh and that’s exactly what the followers of Kahana and the likes in Tel Aviv and New York want. What you got to say when you have not even began an alternative energy production and distribution? Oh I get it, wall them bastards but make sure you take their oil, uhm I mean your oil since this planet never meant to have this filthy race in it anyway. I mean they do infringe on your freedom don’t they?
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post #59 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-01-2005, 11:34 PM
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

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jjl
Memories fade. That was a different generation. People get lazy and comfortable. Most Europeans have no memory of the barbarian at the gate, and the role of America in defeating them. American people now, I suggest, are really not that much different from those that helped liberate Europe. You current administration has made some serious strategic misjudgements regarding the ME, but on the other hand, Europeans are in the process of throwing away their western civilisation because of political correctness. There is a 'clash of civilisations' between the western world and the Islamic world, a profound ideological void, and instead of calling a spade a spade, and religious fascism religious fascism, our liberals are vying to outdo each other with their politically correct apologies for the behaviour of those who do not value human rights, and hold our version of civilisation in contempt. Europe is sleepwalking into a transformation that will see our hard-fought for freedoms profoundly challenged. For all America's faults, it is the world's best hope.
The world best hope is people like us here on this forum who can call a “spade a spade�. You are correct politicians in Europe are going to drain that continent and dilute the shit out off it. We all need to back off; Europeans stay in Europe and Muslims, Arabs and other foreigners must go back to where they came from. They were never really welcomed merely tolerated to pick up trash and do menial work but some had the audacity to educate themselves and take jobs away from the “elite race� oh and even more horrifying is the intermarriages and the soiling of European women.
This social experimentation has obviously failed. This foreign religion is a menace to civilization and is surely not even good for them backward people, I mean look at them they constantly fight and want to take land away from the chosen people. Can you imagine if them politicians let Turkey for example join the union? Wow like 60 million of them with voting rights dictating what you can or cannot do based on their fascist beliefs. This is really going too far and it will eventually upset the balance that the Teutonic Gods had put in place. Call the yanks to the rescue…
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post #60 of 100 (permalink) Old 10-02-2005, 05:00 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Only six dead inside the Superdome

Jim,
I understand ( I think) what you are saying. However, you seem to assume that the rest of the world has remained constant, and only the US has changed. I think the rest of the world has changed and continues to change. Europe provides no benchmark to judge the US--.

The US has changed, too---For whatever reason, we seem to resemble more the USSR of the Kruschev era than the USA of the same era.

The culture war seems responsible for much of the change I see. Before, there was a kind of benign acceptance of the Christian world view. I am not saying that the US was a Christian nation, but it followed roughly Christian principles. This was not a political stance; but it was how most people lived. Most people accepted that honesty WAS the best policy, that being a good neighbor meant watching what the neighborhood kids were up to and holding them responsible--that" doing unto others as you would have them do unto you" was really a golden rule. Sure there were major inconsistencies--families went to church regularly, but were still dysfunctional. Married couples were unfaithful.
But the point is that there was a common culture, a common understanding of what was good, right and true.
For a variety of reasons, this is no longer true. "Truth" has become a relative thing. "Spin" replaces accurately telling what happened. Instead of teaching the greatness of American history, now we teach only the evils of America--neither is a true picture of the history of the US, but a balances presentation is not allowed. The federal government has grown to the point where it attracts people who want to distate to everyone else how they should live. Thats true whether those people are Christians ( or pseudo-christians), or anti- christians. Everyone wants to use the federal government as a bludgeon to force their view on the nation. I am a paleo-conservative because I think it true that "the government that governs least, governs best". I do not like government "meddling" whether it is the socialists who want to give all my money to some desiganted group, or the repubs trying to give it all to their friends. I do think I get more return on monet given to businesses than money given to bureacrats, but its a close thing.
I yearn for a day where the news contains accurate accounts of events that we can all agree on. Then on the basis of agreed upon facts the peole get to decide a course of action thru their representatives. There is enough variance of opinion that even with a common basis of fact, we would still have great differences of opinion.
Back to your point of why were are so hated.... I realy don't care. I do not see why we should be bothered if people don't like us. All the pundits say that isolationism won't/can't work. I don't see why not. Live and let live. I think I'd be in favor of pulling US forces from every country where they are not wanted, and most countries where they are. Let us take care of us. Allow businesses to make contract with foreign countries as they see fit. Cut foreign aid; maintain a sufficient armed force to deter agression. Retaliate with force to anyone who attacks us, but stop trying to influence events around the world. Fortify the borders and control immigration ( control; not eliminate).
Well, I've rambled on long enough. Hope I answered some of your points.
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