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post #231 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-27-2005, 10:18 AM
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RE: God? and stuff....

Quote:
tcp_ML500 - 9/24/2005 8:02 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 9/23/2005 10:28 AM
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tcp_ML500 - 9/23/2005 10:03 AM
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GermanStar - 9/23/2005 8:35 AM
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Botnst - 9/23/2005 4:44 AM
Abortion is killing a child not yet born.
Exactly. And contraception is killing a child not yet conceived.
Potential of life is not life. An unborn child is not potential life, it is life.
Botnst's and your statements are not equivalent thought processes.
The question goes back once more to, when does life begin:
Clearly, it cannot have begun before conception.
Has it begun when the eggs is fertilized? On this people of good will will never agree. I'm partial to say that it is no more alive than a kidney (then again, people don't sacrifice a kidney unless it is dysfuntional, but that is the personal issue others have described and to which I subscribe) until all higher brain functions are functional and functioning correctly.

This is where there is a possible dreakdown in Botnst's incremental approach of day n to day n+1. That could also make a limit such as "abortions allowed until the n'th week of pregnancy" pointless, although it could be a valid guildeline, within +/- a few days.
Egg cells and sperm cells are most definitely alive. Heck, epithelial cells of the skin and intestine are alive. I think we need to place a more emotional weight on the thing to make it worth arguing.

I think that most people, regardless of culture, object to killing human beings. But most people make exceptions to that general rule under certain grave (!) circumstances. Each of us has our own personal list of exceptions to the taboo of killing otehr folks.

Sperm and egg are alive and the zygote is alive. And the post-partum human is alive and the human, old and frail on the deathbed, is still alive. I think it was Haldane who said that a person is just sperms' way of making more sperm.

B
We cannot disagree when using the broader sense of "live", "life" or "alive"
I don't remember where you stood on the Schiavo deal, but I was of the op<u>o</u>nion that she was a vegetable ripe for the picking. Yet, she was alive, by the (accepted) definition you used.
In my post, I provided for my view of what constituted life. I may well be wrong, completely wrong, and most certainly wrong according to 50% of BW.org member's values). My view is nothing else than the filter I would apply if I had to make such decision, and a filter I would apply if I had to sit on Kervorkian's jury, amended for the fact that a terminal being, alive by my definition, has the authority to request his life to end, but that no-one can make that decision for him/her.

The other definition of Life I go by is:
Life, a lethal, sexually transmitted disease.


Cadbury Schweppes Ltd. and Merck Drug Co. have combined to market the new
Mint flavoured birth control pill that women may take immediately before sex.
The Pill will be distributed by the large major drug store chains and Wal-Mart's Pharmacies.

They're going to be called....


"Pre-dick-a-mints."


[:p]
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post #232 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-27-2005, 10:23 AM
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Dumbing it up

Quote:
MarcusF - 9/27/2005 10:10 AM

Alright, suppose I decide to look at this from a non-theistic perspective. It introduces a number of basic questions.

The body has a number of subsystems. If the logic behind evolution is that bodily subsystems develop on an as needed basis, then please explain the order in which these were developed, and why: mouth, throat, stomach, small intestine, large intestine, and anus. These subsystems are all interdependent. If one of these six is taken away, the subject doesn’t adequately digest five sixths of the necessary food, they digest no food and die (unless it's the anus that doesn't develope, then the subjects swells up and explodes). Therefore, without one another, the other systems are worthless. Does evolution allow for the development of worthless subsystems that miraculously fit together? It seems that all these subsystems must have all developed simultaneously. If so, who/what coordinated the construction? Doesn’t the parallel development of separate components imply a design? If there is design, what does that imply? What was the body doing for food while these systems were being developed? What was the body doing for air while respiratory system was being constructed? Ditto the circulatory system. Ditto the immune system. Et cetera.

Supposing I can get past all the problems involved in all the subsystems necessary for one person to live. How is it that the male/female reproductive organs are a perfect fit each other? Each gender is a completely separate living creature. How was the information passed between the two genders and an agreement established as to which gender would be responsible for it’s specific functions? Supposing the information was somehow passed between the two genders, are we to believe that both individual creatures “evolved� at the same time? Wouldn’t that “same time� have to be one single lifetime? If it took more than one lifetime, the species would have perished.
He said "Anus".

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post #233 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-27-2005, 10:28 AM
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RE: God? and stuff....

I think the problem lies in the fact that you're assuming that God went poof! And their stood Adam and Eve. My contention is that we were once no more concise than a globule of poo and through the (excuse the term) "miracle" of science and evolution, our dirty parts are now a perfect fit, although most women have difficulty accomodating mine.

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post #234 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-27-2005, 10:29 AM
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RE: Dumbing it up

Quote:
ThrillKill - 9/27/2005 11:23 AM
Quote:
MarcusF - 9/27/2005 10:10 AM
Alright, suppose I decide to look at this from a non-theistic perspective. It introduces a number of basic questions.

The body has a number of subsystems. If the logic behind evolution is that bodily subsystems develop on an as needed basis, then please explain the order in which these were developed, and why: mouth, throat, stomach, small intestine, large intestine, and anus. These subsystems are all interdependent. If one of these six is taken away, the subject doesn’t adequately digest five sixths of the necessary food, they digest no food and die (unless it's the anus that doesn't develope, then the subjects swells up and explodes). Therefore, without one another, the other systems are worthless. Does evolution allow for the development of worthless subsystems that miraculously fit together? It seems that all these subsystems must have all developed simultaneously. If so, who/what coordinated the construction? Doesn’t the parallel development of separate components imply a design? If there is design, what does that imply? What was the body doing for food while these systems were being developed? What was the body doing for air while respiratory system was being constructed? Ditto the circulatory system. Ditto the immune system. Et cetera.

Supposing I can get past all the problems involved in all the subsystems necessary for one person to live. How is it that the male/female reproductive organs are a perfect fit each other? Each gender is a completely separate living creature. How was the information passed between the two genders and an agreement established as to which gender would be responsible for it’s specific functions? Supposing the information was somehow passed between the two genders, are we to believe that both individual creatures “evolved� at the same time? Wouldn’t that “same time� have to be one single lifetime? If it took more than one lifetime, the species would have perished.
He said "Anus".
That's an outrage, I am shocked, in complete disbelief!
<font size = 6>MODERATOR!</font>
Did he allow for the possibility that some of the "interdependent" subsystems evolved not in parallel, but as specializations within an originally unique system?

I feel so miserable without you; its almost like having you here.
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post #235 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-27-2005, 10:48 AM
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RE: God? and stuff....

Quote:
MarcusF - 9/27/2005 11:10 AM

Alright, suppose I decide to look at this from a non-theistic perspective. It introduces a number of basic questions.

The body has a number of subsystems. If the logic behind evolution is that bodily subsystems develop on an as needed basis, then please explain the order in which these were developed, and why: mouth, throat, stomach, small intestine, large intestine, and anus. These subsystems are all interdependent. If one of these six is taken away, the subject doesn’t adequately digest five sixths of the necessary food, they digest no food and die (unless it's the anus that doesn't develope, then the subjects swells up and explodes). Therefore, without one another, the other systems are worthless. Does evolution allow for the development of worthless subsystems that miraculously fit together? It seems that all these subsystems must have all developed simultaneously. If so, who/what coordinated the construction? Doesn’t the parallel development of separate components imply a design? If there is design, what does that imply? What was the body doing for food while these systems were being developed? What was the body doing for air while respiratory system was being constructed? Ditto the circulatory system. Ditto the immune system. Et cetera.

Supposing I can get past all the problems involved in all the subsystems necessary for one person to live. How is it that the male/female reproductive organs are a perfect fit each other? Each gender is a completely separate living creature. How was the information passed between the two genders and an agreement established as to which gender would be responsible for it’s specific functions? Supposing the information was somehow passed between the two genders, are we to believe that both individual creatures “evolved� at the same time? Wouldn’t that “same time� have to be one single lifetime? If it took more than one lifetime, the species would have perished.
You fail to recognize that far simpler systems exist today in life forms. Far simpler systems can then evolve into much more complex systems over time. You reference sexual production but fail to recognize asexual and hermaphroditic reproduction which easily explain how sexual production could arise. For every complex biological system there is an equally simple one that can be found in nature.

You think about the issue to simplistically and you will come to simplistic conclusions.
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post #236 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-27-2005, 01:25 PM
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RE: God? and stuff....

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ThrillKill - 9/27/2005 11:28 AM

I think the problem lies in the fact that you're assuming that God went poof!
You think God is gay? How queer.
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post #237 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-27-2005, 08:54 PM
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RE: Dumbing it up

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tcp_ML500 - 9/27/2005 9:29 AM
Did he allow for the possibility that some of the "interdependent" subsystems evolved not in parallel, but as specializations within an originally unique system?
If you’re proposing that a living creature began with a working, all encompassing system, and then evolved such as to have independent subsystems, that introduces several other problems, but lets look at this quandary first; organization. How did the single system know which changes were required to become subsystems without design? A combination small intestine / large intestine wouldn’t have the intelligence required to perform the split into two subsystems. Without the intelligence, I’d have to believe that conflict resolution can occur without outside influence. The service departments at Mercedes dealerships are based on the premise that conflict resolution doesn’t happen on it’s own. Without intelligent design, we have chance molecular movement. Are you saying complex interdependent subsystems could possibly be the result of chance molecular movement? If not, and there is no intelligent design, what other option is there?
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post #238 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-27-2005, 09:13 PM
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RE: God? and stuff....

Quote:
That Guy - 9/27/2005 9:48 AM
You fail to recognize that far simpler systems exist today in life forms. Far simpler systems can then evolve into much more complex systems over time. You reference sexual production but fail to recognize asexual and hermaphroditic reproduction which easily explain how sexual production could arise. For every complex biological system there is an equally simple one that can be found in nature.

You think about the issue to simplistically and you will come to simplistic conclusions.
I'm stuck on the part about "can then evolve . . . over time". Saying that it "can", but not having any examples is conjecture. And you’re right, I’ve yet to recognize a "simple" system in any life form. However, I didn’t fail to recognize asexual reproduction. The problem is no one has observed an asexual creature undergo a metamorphosis where it changes to a new species that requires both male and female germ cells to reproduce. If you have an example, I'd like to know what the old species was called, and which current species replaced it.
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post #239 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-28-2005, 02:43 AM
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RE: God? and stuff....

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Jesus, Lord Savior - 9/21/2005 9:22 AM

PS. I got some young men to, and for, your taste.
i married eleven women. You died virgin.. now who needs the men here???
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post #240 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-28-2005, 03:07 AM
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RE: God? and stuff....

[QUOTE]Jillian80 - 9/27/2005 10:13 AM

Quote:
ThrillKill - 9/27/2005 8:14 AM

He gloats like a buttered rye, and stinks like a pee.
Hahahahaha!!!!

I actually spit my coffee on the computer screen.

[:D][:p][:D][/QUOTE}]
Hmmm,do you post on other sites Jilly,or is it just that you don't have na original thought in your head....given that i have seen this comment before quite a few times.
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