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post #141 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-21-2005, 03:28 PM
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RE: God? and stuff....

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That Guy - 9/21/2005 2:06 PM

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MarcusF - 9/21/2005 1:31 AM

Where did He come “from�? Your question requires that “time� be brought into the equation. Once, time was viewed as an abstract notion. A term invented by men used to describe physical changes. Our good friend Albert Einstein had something to say about that. According to Einstein’s theories, which have been repeatedly proven, time is a physical property that is affected by velocity, mass, and acceleration. Being a one of the universes’ physical properties, it had to be created. Everything here had to have been created. At least that’s what the First Law of Thermodynamics says. The First Law of Thermodynamics clearly states that nothing is now coming into existence or going out of existence. Matter and energy may be converted into one another, but there is no net increase in the combined total of what exists. But wait, matter and energy are both present and accounted for, and The First Law is indisputably correct, so how is it that anything exists? The answer is God.
You follow a wonderful line of critical scientific thought and then at the end you plug in the flying spaghetti monster. Wow!

The answer is that its something we don't understand yet. The nice thing about science is that it will not provide fanciful conclusions when it lacks an answer. It will provide hypotheses which can then be proven or unproven, but it will never provide an untestable conclusion that cannot be backed up by empirical evidence.
Well, then read my first post, and you'll see, your scientific hopotheses has been proven as false. Move on.

What I'm saying is that not only can you not prove origin with science, but following logical lines, one can 'easily' see how science never could. In other words, it's not a matter of undiscovered answers. Science proves God by, using it's own scientific laws, proving that it could not have come into existance without something higher than science. To deny that logic would be to reject God, and make you a rather blind person.

It amazes me the zeal with which scientists and evolutionists will stare the impossiblity of their explnation for origin of the universe in the face, and accept the impossible, rather than accepting God.

God's not going to jump out of a bush and shout, "I exist, I exist" God's got nothing to prove to you.

Only once you reject the impossible, can you even start to discover truth.
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post #142 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-21-2005, 03:32 PM
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RE: God? and stuff....

Quote:
Gert123456 - 9/21/2005 2:28 PM

Well, then read my first post, and you'll see, your scientific hopotheses has been proven as false. Move on.

What I'm saying is that not only can you not prove origin with science, but following logical lines, one can 'easily' see how science never could. In other words, it's not a matter of undiscovered answers. Science proves God by, using it's own scientific laws, proving that it could not have come into existance without something higher than science. To deny that logic would be to reject God, and make you a rather blind person.

It amazes me the zeal with which scientists and evolutionists will stare the impossiblity of their explnation for origin of the universe in the face, and accept the impossible, rather than accepting God.

God's not going to jump out of a bush and shout, "I exist, I exist" God's got nothing to prove to you.

Only once you reject the impossible, can you even start to discover truth.
Yeah, all those moron 140+ I.Q. scientists running around. Lucky for us you're around to straighten 'em all out! Good luck with that!

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post #143 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-21-2005, 03:37 PM
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RE: God? and stuff....

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MarcusF - 9/21/2005 3:32 PM

Quote:
That Guy - 9/21/2005 11:06 AM

You follow a wonderful line of critical scientific thought and then at the end you plug in the flying spaghetti monster. Wow!

The answer is that its something we don't understand yet. The nice thing about science is that it will not provide fanciful conclusions when it lacks an answer. It will provide hypotheses which can then be proven or unproven, but it will never provide an untestable conclusion that cannot be backed up by empirical evidence.
Your response would seem to indicate that you find the babblings of one Charles Darwin to be unscientific. In that, we have something we agree on! Since you didn’t care for my last quote, perhaps you’ll find this one to be more palatable.

"In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views."
- Albert Einstein
from The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, page 214
Thank you, that's one of the quotes I was referring to in my earlier post. Nice to have a respected pillar of scientific genius say that science cannot and will not be able to explain the start of it all.

I'm looking at the history in these posts and it seems to me that anyone who insists that there is no God after reading the threads, is blind.

That reminds me of the verse that speaks of Satan blinding the hearts of people.

Having said that, I do recognize that the solution is spiritual and heart-related, and that the discussions in this thread will not convince those dead-set upon rejecting God. It's just fun really.

And it's nice to see the decency that has accompanied this sensitive issue, with exception to a few posts.
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post #144 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-21-2005, 03:41 PM
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RE: God? and stuff....

Quote:
Gert123456 - 9/21/2005 4:37 PM





Having said that, I do recognize that the solution is spiritual and heart-related, and that the discussions in this thread will not convince those dead-set upon rejecting God. It's just fun really.
You'd make a lousy missionary.[:)]

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post #145 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-21-2005, 03:48 PM
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RE: God? and stuff....

Quote:
GermanStar - 9/21/2005 4:07 PM

Quote:
MarcusF - 9/21/2005 12:32 PM

"In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views."
- Albert Einstein
from The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, page 214
OK -- what's the point? The conflict between Christianity and science is entirely one sided. The fact is that science has no agenda other than the search for truth through the determination and application of empirical evidence. Christianity, OTOH, does have an agenda, and that agenda has historically included condemning those who criticize or disprove certain tenets of Christianity to ridicule, imprisonment, or even death. In case you haven't noticed, the warmth with which Christianity greeted the findings of Galileo and Copernicus is still evident today. The difference is merely one of degree.
So what's YOUR point. What does agendas have to do with the fact that your precious science implodes on itself?

Amazing how you insist on arguing the symantcs. Because you cannot and will not be able to explain the main issue, where did it all start. Science implodes on itself, while Christianity does not due to the fact that Christianity uses spiritual laws to explain.

I'd rather believe something far out but possible, though it be out of my realm of understanding, than to believe that science has all the answers. It doesn't.

It easier to believe in God than in science, because to believe in science would be to believe the impossible, proven.

Scientists will continue to find answers to their questions, the same way you will find an answer to 10 / 2. Then 5 / 2. Then 2.5 / 2. You will never arrive at zero, but you'll always find an acceptable answer, and you'll cling to that answer until the next answer comes. But when that next answer comes, still, it won't arrive at zero. Thus is the futility of your scientific attempt at explaining God away.

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post #146 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-21-2005, 03:53 PM
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RE: God? and stuff....

Quote:
kvining - 9/21/2005 4:49 PM

Quote:
Gert123456 - 9/20/2005 11:28 PM

The problem with evoltionists and their THEORY is this:

According to science philosophy, a scientific theory becomes a scientific law when it is proved repeatedly under various different circumstances.

The problem with the theory of evolution is that it disproves itself. Because when you go back as far as you can, and keep asking the question "where did that come from?" you eventually come to a point where there is just SCIENTIFICALLY NOTHING. What made the Big Bang? Gasses? Ok, where did the gasses come from? No matter what you answer, I can just keep asking you "where did that come from?"

So the theory of evolution implodes on itself by disproving itself using it's own scientific guidelines. Not only does the theory of evolution lack proof, but it disproves itself.

Has something ever come from nothing? No. Has an explosion ever created anything? No, in fact explosions have only ever destroyed things. Science philosophy says that whenever something occurs repeatedly under various circumstances, it becomes a law. Explosions repeatedly destroy things, so the theory of evolution is Indisputably DISPROVED!

So using the guidelines for defining a 'scientific fact' it is therefore a FACT that the theory of evolution is not only implausible, but is, according to the very science it claims as its basis, impossible.

The theory STARTS OFF by ASSUMING matter and force. The closest thing to the theory of evolution being plausible would be if that assumption of matter and force, were GOD, in other words, after God caused that one-celled organism to come into existance, the rest followed by evolution (Also highly scientifically unlikely)

Now I know what you're saying, "So then where did God come from? If there is simply nothing, then where is God?"

Here's the thing: Science says "Seeing is believing". But Christians do not operate by scientific laws. They operate by spiritual laws that seem to directly contradict scientific laws. For example "Do not live by sight, but by faith. FIRST BELIEVE and then you will SEE" The same way natural laws say, "keep your money and you will make more" and spiritual laws say "be a giver, and you will make more"

So spiritual laws GOVERN scientific laws, and HENCE, do not submit under the same scientific rules.

So, though a Christian cannot explain the source of God, he doesn't have to explain God using scientific reasoning because science did not create God, God created science.

Any level headed person reading this, can now clearly see how science cannot explain the origin of things.

This leaves us in a place where we have to believe in something we cannot explain with science - God!

And some people may say that the Bible puts the earth at an age of around 5700 years.

So stop arguing litle issues like prophecy and the missing link and the earth's age. Focus on the overall governing issue: Science PROVES ITSELF impossible to have been the origin of things, and that leaves SOMETHING supernatural, that though we cannot explain it, is the only explanation that doesn't disqualify itself.

P.S. Don't judge religion by the people the follow it. Particularly, don't judge Christ or Christianity by the people that call themselves Christians. If you sleep in a bakery, you don't become a loaf of bread. So going to church doesn't make you a Christian. You are a Christian if you firstly believe in Christ as the Son of God, comfess that you believe in Christ as the Son of God, and then act like Christ.

PPS. Contrary to popular opinion, the Bible is not a rule book. It's mostly a guide book. "All things are permissible for me, but not all things are profitiable!"

Ricardo
SO let me get this straight - you believe the theory of evolution is disproven because you can follow it back to a point where you have no knowledge? In other words, to use your bread analogy, the bread in your supermarket doesn't exist because you don't know who baked it. Pretty stupid.
No. I've been misunderstanding the definition of evolution. I believe that the ORIGIN OF THE UNIVERSE is disproven by simply following the process of evolution back to a point where there's just nothing.

You are taking my bread analogy out of context. That had to do with becoming a Christian, not with explaining the origin of life. But if you like I'll continue on that same out-of-context response buy saying that - NO, the bread does exist, because you know SOMEONE baked it, it didn't just explode onto the scene with a BIG BANG.
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post #147 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-21-2005, 03:59 PM
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RE: God? and stuff....

Quote:
kvining - 9/21/2005 4:51 PM

Quote:
Gert123456 - 9/20/2005 11:46 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 9/20/2005 10:41 PM

Quote:
Gert123456 - 9/20/2005 7:32 PM

No he's not guilty of defining God. He was stating what the Bible says about God, that he is all-knowing. Nothing wrong with that.
The Bible says a great many things. Do you believe them all, or just the one's you find credible?
I find everything the Bible says more credible than a theory that disproves itself.

The point, if you were paying attention, was that he had a basis for his statement.

"a theory that disproves itself"? Like a flat earth, for instance?
I'm not sure what you mean. I'll try respond to how I understand you:

Yes, they had a theory that the earth was flat, then they proved that its false. So science, using it's own methods, disproves itself as an explanation. Because when you go back far enough, you have no energy, no matter and no force, and that's when you have to acknowledge that sciece disproved itself. There must be something more.
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post #148 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-21-2005, 04:03 PM
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RE: God? and stuff....

Quote:
tcp_ML500 - 9/21/2005 4:56 PM

Quote:
kvining - 9/21/2005 3:51 PM
"a theory that disproves itself"? Like a flat earth, for instance?
OK then, if the earth were not flat, how could we stand and not fall down hill. I'm very worried about the turtoise at the bottom, the more people on the earth, the heavier it becomes. The sun a ball of gas, ha ha ha ha ha! You'd be funny if you were not so pathetic trying to obscure the mind of good and decent believers! Yer going to HELL!
If you're posts weren't so avoiding of the issue, I'd think your science might have a chance after all.

That's a joke btw.

When you have something valuable to contribute to support you view, let me know, until then.
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post #149 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-21-2005, 04:08 PM
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RE: God? and stuff....

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MarcusF - 9/21/2005 5:05 PM

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GermanStar - 9/21/2005 1:07 PM
OK -- what's the point? The conflict between Christianity and science is entirely one sided. The fact is that science has no agenda other than the search for truth through the determination and application of empirical evidence. Christianity, OTOH, does have an agenda, and that agenda has historically included condemning those who criticize or disprove certain tenets of Christianity to ridicule, imprisonment, or even death. In case you haven't noticed, the warmth with which Christianity greeted the findings of Galileo and Copernicus is still evident today. The difference is merely one of degree.
You seem to be somewhat confused. Christianity is the Christian religion based upon the belief in Jesus as the Christ and upon His teachings. Catholicism is the doctrine, faith, practice, and organization of the Roman Catholic Church. They are not one in the same. Like most Christians, I believe it is perfectly fine for you or anyone else to believe in whatever you want. If one chooses to believe that somehow the First Law of Thermodynamics was suspended and all the energy and matter in the universe miraculously created itself from nothing, followed by the Second Law of Thermodynamics being suspended while the great “order without outside influence� took place, it's OK by me.

“The second law of thermodynamics not only is a principle of wide reaching scope and application, but also is one which has never failed to satisfy the severest test of experiment. The numerous quantitative relations derived from this law have been subjected to more and more accurate experimental investigations without the detection of the slightest inaccuracy.�
-G.N. Lewis and M. Randall, Thermodynamics (1961), p. 87.
You rock. Rest assured though, issue avoidance will stick out its ugly head in the ones who believe in the god of science.
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post #150 of 273 (permalink) Old 09-21-2005, 04:11 PM
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RE: God? and stuff....

Quote:
MarcusF - 9/21/2005 5:05 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 9/21/2005 1:07 PM
OK -- what's the point? The conflict between Christianity and science is entirely one sided. The fact is that science has no agenda other than the search for truth through the determination and application of empirical evidence. Christianity, OTOH, does have an agenda, and that agenda has historically included condemning those who criticize or disprove certain tenets of Christianity to ridicule, imprisonment, or even death. In case you haven't noticed, the warmth with which Christianity greeted the findings of Galileo and Copernicus is still evident today. The difference is merely one of degree.
You seem to be somewhat confused. Christianity is the Christian religion based upon the belief in Jesus as the Christ and upon His teachings. Catholicism is the doctrine, faith, practice, and organization of the Roman Catholic Church. They are not one in the same. Like most Christians, I believe it is perfectly fine for you or anyone else to believe in whatever you want. If one chooses to believe that somehow the First Law of Thermodynamics was suspended and all the energy and matter in the universe miraculously created itself from nothing, followed by the Second Law of Thermodynamics being suspended while the great “order without outside influence� took place, it's OK by me.

“The second law of thermodynamics not only is a principle of wide reaching scope and application, but also is one which has never failed to satisfy the severest test of experiment. The numerous quantitative relations derived from this law have been subjected to more and more accurate experimental investigations without the detection of the slightest inaccuracy.�
-G.N. Lewis and M. Randall, Thermodynamics (1961), p. 87.
You rock. Rest assured though, issue avoidance will stick out its ugly head in the ones who believe in the god of science.

I'd like to add that yes Christianity is a religion, but God intended it to be a relationship. When people have forgotten that, the torture and bad things you hear about God, happen.
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