9/11 The Obvious Question - Rate Mr. Bush's Performance In Making Us Safer - Page 8 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #71 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 08:41 PM
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RE: 9/11 The Obvious Question - Rate Mr. Bush's Performance In Making Us Safer

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Botnst - 9/14/2005 7:34 PM

Germie, you know that the Congress and president both have given numerous, lengthy speeches about the reasons for war, prior to, during and after the war. Have you read them all and found them wanting? If so, then probably nothing anybody said or says will ever convince you of anything otehr than what you choose to believe.

That's your choice, but don't blame the politicians of eitehr party that voted to authorize war for lack of detailed, reasonable, non-partisan explanations.

Bot
First off, reasons precede, excuses follow. I never heard one compelling reason -- all I heard was a bunch of trivial nonsense, some of which was built on intentional deceit. For every honorable war (this removes Spanish-American & Vietnam from the equation) in which the U.S. has participated, there has been at least one compelling, powerful reason for our participation.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #72 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 08:45 PM
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RE: 9/11 The Obvious Question - Rate Mr. Bush's Performance In Making Us Safer

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GermanStar - 9/14/2005 10:41 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 9/14/2005 7:34 PM

Germie, you know that the Congress and president both have given numerous, lengthy speeches about the reasons for war, prior to, during and after the war. Have you read them all and found them wanting? If so, then probably nothing anybody said or says will ever convince you of anything otehr than what you choose to believe.

That's your choice, but don't blame the politicians of eitehr party that voted to authorize war for lack of detailed, reasonable, non-partisan explanations.

Bot
First off, reasons precede, excuses follow. I never heard one compelling reason -- all I heard was a bunch of trivial nonsense, some of which was built on intentional deceit. For every honorable war (this removes Spanish-American & Vietnam from the equation) in which the U.S. has participated, there has been at least one compelling, powerful reason for our participation.
Of course you didn't hear a compelling reason, but teh majority of both parties and the overwhelming majority of voters DID.

That's the way representative democracy works. Your side lost the argument and now we're in a war you don't like. Deal with it.

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post #73 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 08:53 PM
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RE: 9/11 The Obvious Question - Rate Mr. Bush's Performance In Making Us Safer

I'm all ears -- what was the one powerful, compelling reason to go to war from which all ambiguity had been extinguished?

I'll tell you what I think it was. I think we had a bunch of pissed off politicians who just wanted to kick someone's ass for 9/11, whether they were responsible or not. The same pissed off politicians who gave the Patriot Act the nod without bothering to scrutinize the contents...

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #74 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 09:15 PM
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RE: 9/11 The Obvious Question - Rate Mr. Bush's Performance In Making Us Safer

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GermanStar - 9/14/2005 10:53 PM

I'm all ears -- what was the one powerful, compelling reason to go to war from which all ambiguity had been extinguished?......
That's exactly the point. Assuming you have read and heard all of teh arguments, you were unconvinced. that's fine, you are entitled to an opinion. So are other people. In this instance your opinion was in the minority.

When I was a new voter I found being in the minority on issues uncomfortable: How could I be so wrong?

Later I changed it to: How can I have such divergent opinions?

Now it's more like: F**k'em if they can't take a joke. IOW, I accept that more than half of the time my opinion and perspectives and beliefs are at variance with the majority. It doesn't mean that I am either necessarily right or wrong, just different. But I make no secret of believing that I am right and have no problem defending what I believe.

And that's as it should be in a pluralistic society with a representative democracy form of government.

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post #75 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 09:34 PM
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RE: 9/11 The Obvious Question - Rate Mr. Bush's Performance In Making Us Safer

Quote:
Botnst - 9/14/2005 8:15 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 9/14/2005 10:53 PM

I'm all ears -- what was the one powerful, compelling reason to go to war from which all ambiguity had been extinguished?......
That's exactly the point. Assuming you have read and heard all of teh arguments, you were unconvinced.
And that is mine -- there is none. You can't even put your finger on it -- you can only reference a long and ambiguous list. Take Korea for example -- there was a compelling, unambiguous reason for engaging an enemy in Korea. Many Americans didn't agree with the action, but there was a single compelling reason that could be debated and clearly stated in a brief sentence. In my opinion, that kind of clarity is an absolute requirement for something as dramatic as invasion.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #76 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 10:10 PM
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RE: 9/11 The Obvious Question - Rate Mr. Bush's Performance In Making Us Safer

Quote:
GermanStar - 9/14/2005 11:34 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 9/14/2005 8:15 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 9/14/2005 10:53 PM

I'm all ears -- what was the one powerful, compelling reason to go to war from which all ambiguity had been extinguished?......
That's exactly the point. Assuming you have read and heard all of teh arguments, you were unconvinced.
And that is mine -- there is none. You can't even put your finger on it -- you can only reference a long and ambiguous list. Take Korea for example -- there was a compelling, unambiguous reason for engaging an enemy in Korea. Many Americans didn't agree with the action, but there was a single compelling reason that could be debated and clearly stated in a brief sentence. In my opinion, that kind of clarity is an absolute requirement for something as dramatic as invasion.
Are you being intentionally obtuse? Many voters, the majority in fact, felt the reaons were suffiently compelling to support it. So did both parties in Congress and most of them speachified about it at length.

Because you are unconvinced means only this: You are unconvinced. There is not one thing that anybody has said that has convinced you otherwise. So what?

Most people found good and sufficient reasons and they won and you lost. Tough titty. On some other issue at some other time your viewpoint will prevail and some nutter out there will never be convinced of the rightness of your particular cause. So what? That's life in the fast lane of a representative democracy. You win some, you lose some.

As you well know, I don't give a damn what anybody else on the planet says about the justification for war. I have my reasons and I find them all that is necesary and sufficient. That my reaons are different but the results are the same doesn't bother me in the least.

Why should disagreeing with the majority and finding their reasons insufficient be a surprise to you? Isn't that what it means to disagree?

B
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post #77 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 10:37 PM
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RE: 9/11 The Obvious Question - Rate Mr. Bush's Performance In Making Us Safer

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Botnst - 9/14/2005 9:10 PM

Are you being intentionally obtuse?
No, I'm asking one question, and you seem to be answering another. What was the one powerful, compelling reason to go to war from which all ambiguity had been extinguished? No one can answer the question because there is apparently no answer. That is my personal requisite for going to war, and I think it's quite reasonable. I'm not interested in a collection of lesser reasons. I believe you could supply a single compelling reason for every honorable war in which we were involved throughout the history of this country. It is painfully obvious that many of my contemporaries don't seem to agree with that requisite.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #78 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-15-2005, 07:20 AM
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RE: 9/11 The Obvious Question - Rate Mr. Bush's Performance In Making Us Safer

Quote:
Botnst - 9/14/2005 11:10 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 9/14/2005 11:34 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 9/14/2005 8:15 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 9/14/2005 10:53 PM

I'm all ears -- what was the one powerful, compelling reason to go to war from which all ambiguity had been extinguished?......
That's exactly the point. Assuming you have read and heard all of teh arguments, you were unconvinced.
And that is mine -- there is none. You can't even put your finger on it -- you can only reference a long and ambiguous list. Take Korea for example -- there was a compelling, unambiguous reason for engaging an enemy in Korea. Many Americans didn't agree with the action, but there was a single compelling reason that could be debated and clearly stated in a brief sentence. In my opinion, that kind of clarity is an absolute requirement for something as dramatic as invasion.
Are you being intentionally obtuse? Many voters, the majority in fact, felt the reaons were suffiently compelling to support it. So did both parties in Congress and most of them speachified about it at length.

Because you are unconvinced means only this: You are unconvinced. There is not one thing that anybody has said that has convinced you otherwise. So what?

Most people found good and sufficient reasons and they won and you lost. Tough titty. On some other issue at some other time your viewpoint will prevail and some nutter out there will never be convinced of the rightness of your particular cause. So what? That's life in the fast lane of a representative democracy. You win some, you lose some.

As you well know, I don't give a damn what anybody else on the planet says about the justification for war. I have my reasons and I find them all that is necesary and sufficient. That my reaons are different but the results are the same doesn't bother me in the least.

Why should disagreeing with the majority and finding their reasons insufficient be a surprise to you? Isn't that what it means to disagree?

B
Not admitting everyone has a right to their opinion is bad. Even worse is trying to argue that their should be no opposition to the majority.
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post #79 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-15-2005, 03:15 PM
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RE: 9/11 The Obvious Question - Rate Mr. Bush's Performance In Making Us Safer

Quote:
Shane - 9/15/2005 9:20 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 9/14/2005 11:10 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 9/14/2005 11:34 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 9/14/2005 8:15 PM

Quote:
GermanStar - 9/14/2005 10:53 PM

I'm all ears -- what was the one powerful, compelling reason to go to war from which all ambiguity had been extinguished?......
That's exactly the point. Assuming you have read and heard all of teh arguments, you were unconvinced.
And that is mine -- there is none. You can't even put your finger on it -- you can only reference a long and ambiguous list. Take Korea for example -- there was a compelling, unambiguous reason for engaging an enemy in Korea. Many Americans didn't agree with the action, but there was a single compelling reason that could be debated and clearly stated in a brief sentence. In my opinion, that kind of clarity is an absolute requirement for something as dramatic as invasion.
Are you being intentionally obtuse? Many voters, the majority in fact, felt the reaons were suffiently compelling to support it. So did both parties in Congress and most of them speachified about it at length.

Because you are unconvinced means only this: You are unconvinced. There is not one thing that anybody has said that has convinced you otherwise. So what?

Most people found good and sufficient reasons and they won and you lost. Tough titty. On some other issue at some other time your viewpoint will prevail and some nutter out there will never be convinced of the rightness of your particular cause. So what? That's life in the fast lane of a representative democracy. You win some, you lose some.

As you well know, I don't give a damn what anybody else on the planet says about the justification for war. I have my reasons and I find them all that is necesary and sufficient. That my reaons are different but the results are the same doesn't bother me in the least.

Why should disagreeing with the majority and finding their reasons insufficient be a surprise to you? Isn't that what it means to disagree?

B
Not admitting everyone has a right to their opinion is bad. Even worse is trying to argue that their should be no opposition to the majority.
Huh?
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post #80 of 103 (permalink) Old 09-15-2005, 03:44 PM
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RE: 9/11 The Obvious Question - Rate Mr. Bush's Performance In Making Us Safer

Quote:
GermanStar - 9/15/2005 12:37 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 9/14/2005 9:10 PM

Are you being intentionally obtuse?
No, I'm asking one question, and you seem to be answering another. What was the one powerful, compelling reason to go to war from which all ambiguity had been extinguished? No one can answer the question because there is apparently no answer. That is my personal requisite for going to war, and I think it's quite reasonable. I'm not interested in a collection of lesser reasons. I believe you could supply a single compelling reason for every honorable war in which we were involved throughout the history of this country. It is painfully obvious that many of my contemporaries don't seem to agree with that requisite.
Each of us amke our own independent decisions as to whether this or that reason is compelling. You see none. That's fine. The greatest value of living in a free society is exactly that: You are free to express your opinion. You are adamant that there was no good reason, but that opinion applies to you and you alone. Other people may agree with you or not. That is their own free choice, too.

I have my own reasons for supporting the war and you know exactly what the reasons are that I believe justify it. Mine are NOT reasons that anybody in Congress or the president mentioned and I don't give a damn whether they agree with me or not. I vote my conscience, not party and certainly not for this or that doofus mofo who promises me shiny objects and wonderful friendships.

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