Islam and the west: incompatible? - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 74 (permalink) Old 08-18-2005, 07:07 PM Thread Starter
jjl
BenzWorld Extremist
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 280SE 280CE 560SEL
Posts: 978
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Islam and the west: incompatible?

Following the bombings in London, I decided to edjumacate myself on Islam by doing the usual random walk across the web. I read the quran about twenty years ago when I shared a student flat with some Muslims, and it left little impression on me, except that feeling one gets from the OT (that's old testament,guys) that it's full of gibberish. At the time, I put this down to my own shortcomings.

Back to the present: I found out a few interesting things; first, I didn't know much about Islam before, but don't much like what I see now. Critics of Islam, Islamic apostates in particular, highlight all the violent material in the Quran; the Prophet took part in sixty or seventy battles, and personally ordered the deaths of hundreds of Jews (by beheading). Islam was spead at the point of a sword. He also took a six year old wife and consummated the marriage at the age of nine (he was in his fifties). This violence is very much in contrast to Jesus's 'love your enemies' message. The same apostates also point out that the penalty for leaving Islam is death, which is very troubling for our concept of freedom. Because Muslims see the Quran as the literal word of Allah, it is not negotiable - so when the Quran says 'kill apostates', apparently it has to be done. Salman Rushdie springs to mind.

The impression I get, despite what muslims say in response to these charges (it is out of context, Islam is a peaceful religion, 'there is no compulsion in religion', etc) is that Islam is incompatible with democracy and Western civilisation. As far as democracy is concerned, one argument I have seen a few times is that 'man' should not make laws, but should be following God's laws as revealed in the Quran - democracy is at best superfluous.

I've visited and spent quite some time at several pro-Islamic sites too, and it is remarkable that some muslims living in the US, for example, find it acceptable to be slippery apologists for osmaBL, 9/11, Madrid, London etc while benefiting from the freedoms they get here. They give me the impression that their allegiance is to other muslims first, and their fellow citizens second, and indeed this seems to be enshrined in the Quran too. A substantial proportion of muslims in the west seem to want to remove our freedoms, free-speech in particular, with the eventual goal of introducing Sharia law. This, it seems to me, is particularly worrying.

Cut to the chase: Is terrorism anything to do with the nature of Islam, or is it down to a few bad apples?






jjl is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 74 (permalink) Old 08-18-2005, 07:38 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
RE: Islam and the west: incompatible?

Islam is a religion much in need of reformation. It is the expression of the Medieval world in the modern. That being said, the people who wish to live under it seem pretty happy with it.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
FeelTheLove is offline  
post #3 of 74 (permalink) Old 08-18-2005, 08:46 PM
Administratoris Emeritus
 
GeeS's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2021 SL770
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Posts: 44,915
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 591 Post(s)
RE: Islam and the west: incompatible?

Great post/topic, jjl -- if I wasn't such a dumbshit, I'd chime in. [B)]

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
GeeS is offline  
post #4 of 74 (permalink) Old 08-18-2005, 08:57 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Naomilla2.0's Avatar
 
Date registered: Nov 2003
Vehicle: 1988 560SEL sold:
Location: Level 42
Posts: 4,717
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
RE: Islam and the west: incompatible?

Quote:
GermanStar - 8/18/2005 10:46 PM

Great post/topic, jjl -- if I wasn't such a dumbshit, I'd chime in. [B)]
Me too. My brain has calcified before I could exploit its potential.

On other note, same can be said about certain Christians. While they do not necessarily strap bombs and go to crowded cities, they instill intolerance. One example that really struck me was a report on orphaned Navajo children adopted by fundamental Christians who told them that the ways of Navajo was evil and only way for them to be salvaged was to accept the Christian religion. Not necessarily coerced at the tips of the sword but equally nefarious.

.
.
.
.

馬鹿は死ななきゃ治らない。

.
Naomilla2.0 is offline  
post #5 of 74 (permalink) Old 08-18-2005, 09:03 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
RE: Islam and the west: incompatible?

Islam and Christianity are both imperialistic religions. Judaism is not, so we can ignore Judaism in this, I believe. Both are commanded by God to save souls. Christian violence in that regard began with their ascendency in the Roman Empire and largely died-out after the politico-religious convulsions in France and the English Revolution. We still have echoes of it today, but our modern Christianity is hardly comparable to the martial Christianity of olde.

I believe that as the Bible was translated into the vernacular, educated people began asking how it was that the Church found military conquest compatible with Jesus' teachings. I have no evidence, but the timing is suggestive of some sort of relationship.

Islam has always been taught in the vernacular in Arab countries. True theological scholarship of Islam is still done in Arabic, worldwide. As a result, the plain words of Muhammed (or Allah, if you like) are there for everybody to read. Muhammed is very direct and forthright about turning souls to Allah (in my memory of having read the Koran at about the same time as JJL). There are not many contradictory passages in the Quran, as compared to modern interpretations of the Christian Bible. I believe it is because Muhammed set about to 'correct' the texts to remove apprent contradictions and bring them into conformity with his vision (or through Allah's inspired words).

According to Islam I think atheists are the worst (but maybe it is backsliding Muslims), then polytheists and animists of various sorts. Christians and Jews fair better than any other non-Islamic religion, but suppression of all non-Muslims is acceptible.

I think it will be more difficult for Islam to adjust to science and liberal education than it was for Christianity. The overt prohibitions are just so much more powerful in the Koran than in the Christian Bible. Muslims who are Koranic literalists will be much, much more dangerous than Christian literalists because Muhammed plainly describes that violence is okay within certain parameters. I do not believe Jesus ever made that claim, but somebody more knowledgeable than I can straighten me out on that.

Islam has a tough road to follow if it tried to maintain a literalist approach to the Koran in a modern world. The transition times will be especially dangerous. That is the world in which we find ourselves.

B

Bot
Botnst is offline  
post #6 of 74 (permalink) Old 08-19-2005, 08:51 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
elau's Avatar
 
Date registered: Oct 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 5,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
RE: Islam and the west: incompatible?

I think its like anything, too extreme is never good. If people take it less serious, I am sure both religions are good for the souls. If you are the kind of person need such affirmations, that is.

I always have problems listening to preachers or what have you telling me about Heaven and Hell and all that mumble jumble. First of all, they never been there so how do they know so well? Do anyone of you met someone been to Heaven or Hell and back? And cat house and jail don't count.

'95 R129
'04 G35.5 BS
'10 X204
elau is offline  
post #7 of 74 (permalink) Old 08-19-2005, 09:16 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
mzsmbs's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 1972 Mercedes 250 (/8) W114/M130
Location: on a high bank of a creek
Posts: 7,296
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
RE: Islam and the west: incompatible?

Quote:
jjl - 8/18/2005 9:07 PM
The impression I get, despite what Muslims say in response to these charges (it is out of context, Islam is a peaceful religion, 'there is no compulsion in religion', etc) is that Islam is incompatible with democracy and Western civilization. As far as democracy is concerned, one argument I have seen a few times is that 'man' should not make laws, but should be following God's laws as revealed in the Quran - democracy is at best superfluous.

I've visited and spent quite some time at several pro-Islamic sites too, and it is remarkable that some Muslims living in the US, for example, find it acceptable to be slippery apologists for osmaBL, 9/11, Madrid, London etc while benefiting from the freedoms they get here. They give me the impression that their allegiance is to other Muslims first, and their fellow citizens second, and indeed this seems to be enshrined in the Quran too. A substantial proportion of Muslims in the west seem to want to remove our freedoms, free-speech in particular, with the eventual goal of introducing Sharia law. This, it seems to me, is particularly worrying.

Cut to the chase: Is terrorism anything to do with the nature of Islam, or is it down to a few bad apples?
yeah, that's for sure.. you kinda sounding like BHD (VD) here but i agree... i don't think islam has really ever been peaceful.. neither is christianity.. the bible seems to have adjusted in the new testament in talking about doing good in less mistical ways (granted, not much) but many christians are just too intolerant.. that's a big part of the messes we are in today.. we ("Christian" nations) just cant stand others being barbarian (in the dark ages.) Seems we have to fix them... it's funny you all say christianity is not brought at the end of the gun but i still see it happening... we did it to the native americans and are doing it to the Muslims (Iraqis and afganis.) At least that's the way they see it... Like someone said here.. Islam doesn't really seem to be compatible with democracy nor secular dictatorships.. basically the goal is as referred to in what jjl said in my quote and bhd has been spewing for a while.. almost anything western is equated as anti Islamic over there..

if the new Iraqi constitution is based on the Islamic law (like it's looking right now) we will get what we deserve.. a new stronger center of Christian haters.. and we really won't be able anything to do about it..



in political asylum
mzsmbs is offline  
post #8 of 74 (permalink) Old 08-19-2005, 10:15 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
RE: Islam and the west: incompatible?

Quote:
elau - 8/19/2005 10:51 AM

I think its like anything, too extreme is never good. If people take it less serious, I am sure both religions are good for the souls. If you are the kind of person need such affirmations, that is.

I always have problems listening to preachers or what have you telling me about Heaven and Hell and all that mumble jumble. First of all, they never been there so how do they know so well? Do anyone of you met someone been to Heaven or Hell and back? And cat house and jail don't count.
The problem is extremism, that is for sure. Religious extremism got introduced into American politics when Reagan, who actually believed in the nearness of the coming Apocalypse, came to office, bringing with him a bunch of crazy fucks who still infest the GOP like worms. The same thing has happened in a number of Muslim countries. The end result is we are all being victimized by these idiots who think either some beast is going to float around in the sky and throw all but 144,000 of us into hell, or that all who fail to convert to Islam must die. Makes you kind of wish for the Communist Red Menace to come back, doesn't it?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
FeelTheLove is offline  
post #9 of 74 (permalink) Old 08-19-2005, 10:17 AM
Administratoris Emeritus
 
GeeS's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 2021 SL770
Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
Posts: 44,915
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 591 Post(s)
RE: Islam and the west: incompatible?

Quote:
kvining - 8/19/2005 9:15 AM

Makes you kind of wish for the Communist Red Menace to come back, doesn't it?
At least it kept us busy. You know what they say about idle hands...

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
GeeS is offline  
post #10 of 74 (permalink) Old 08-19-2005, 10:21 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
mzsmbs's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 1972 Mercedes 250 (/8) W114/M130
Location: on a high bank of a creek
Posts: 7,296
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
RE: Islam and the west: incompatible?

LOL.. well, they were able to balance us out.. right now no one is capable and we are out of control..



in political asylum
mzsmbs is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome