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post #11 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-08-2005, 07:16 PM
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RE: Bush: Why did you kill my son?

Quote:
kvining - 8/8/2005 8:53 PM

I suppose she has no right to change her mind in y'alls world. Myself, I just figure she is part of the 68% of the people who now see this war for the unmitigated act of stupidity that it is, many of who seemed to have changed their minds about this and now see it for what it is - either a criminal and immoral act of barbarity, or a huge, stupid mistake. Soon the only ones left who support this war will be the Nazis who think we need to wage this war to steal oil, who cover up their criminality by accusing those of us who have a shred of decency and morality left after being dragged through this sewer of blood and murder of 'whimpering and whining' while they engage in robbery and murder.
Sure, she can change her mind. So can you.

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post #12 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-08-2005, 08:32 PM
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RE: Bush: Why did you kill my son?

I'm sure I would feel different if it were my son, and I am certainly sorry to hear of any soldier's death in this recent or any conflict for that matter. But the fact remains:
Regardless if the war is right or justified...

He was a soldier...
Last I recall, there is no draft, therefore, he must have chosen to be a soldier. Soldiers are subject to dangerous duty... If dangerous duty did not exist, there would not be any need for soldiers, now would there...

I don't see it as too much different from the police in any of our larger cities were crime is so prevalent. Thank God they make the choice... for the rest of us.

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post #13 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-08-2005, 10:28 PM
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RE: Bush: Why did you kill my son?

Quote:
Botnst - 8/8/2005 8:16 PM

Quote:
kvining - 8/8/2005 8:53 PM

I suppose she has no right to change her mind in y'alls world. Myself, I just figure she is part of the 68% of the people who now see this war for the unmitigated act of stupidity that it is, many of who seemed to have changed their minds about this and now see it for what it is - either a criminal and immoral act of barbarity, or a huge, stupid mistake. Soon the only ones left who support this war will be the Nazis who think we need to wage this war to steal oil, who cover up their criminality by accusing those of us who have a shred of decency and morality left after being dragged through this sewer of blood and murder of 'whimpering and whining' while they engage in robbery and murder.
Sure, she can change her mind. So can you.

B
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post #14 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-08-2005, 11:00 PM
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RE: Bush: Why did you kill my son?

"Sure, she can change her mind. So can you.

B"

You can wake up and change your mind too.

I voted for Bush in 2000 and regret it dreadfully. Not to big to admit I was very wrong.

The poor woman was probably so in shock that the words of a dip shit were enough to comfort her after loosing her son. Not a situation any of us would want to be in.

She's had a year to reflect.

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post #15 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 12:18 AM
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RE: Bush: Why did you kill my son?

From the original story, conveniently left out of the drudge story

"We haven't been happy with the way the war has been handled," Cindy said. "The president has changed his reasons for being over there every time a reason is proven false or an objective reached."

The 10 minutes of face time with the president could have given the family a chance to vent their frustrations or ask Bush some of the difficult questions they have been asking themselves, such as whether Casey's sacrifice would make the world a safer place.

But in the end, the family decided against such talk, deferring to how they believed Casey would have wanted them to act."

Doesn't seem like a big change in position to me.

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post #16 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 06:00 PM
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RE: Bush: Why did you kill my son?

I wish to express my sincere condolences to the Sheehan family.
She as anyone else has the right to express her feelings and should be heard.

Just keep in mind that her 24 yr old son also expressed his thoughts on this
War by re-upping for a 2nd tour of duty.
post #17 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 06:19 PM
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RE: Bush: Why did you kill my son?

Quote:
Alfa - 8/9/2005 8:00 PM

I wish to express my sincere condolences to the Sheehan family.
She as anyone else has the right to express her feelings and should be heard.

Just keep in mind that her 24 yr old son also expressed his thoughts on this
War by re-upping for a 2nd tour of duty.
does he have a choice ,did he have a choice ?
answer and why should he give his life so that bushes oil company can make a little more money.
its sad how the government treats its own citizens.
to be continued...
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post #18 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 06:22 PM
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RE: Bush: Why did you kill my son?

Quote:
Alfa - 8/9/2005 8:00 PM

I wish to express my sincere condolences to the Sheehan family.
She as anyone else has the right to express her feelings and should be heard.

Just keep in mind that her 24 yr old son also expressed his thoughts on this
War by re-upping for a 2nd tour of duty.
Hey Alfa why aren’t you re-upping too? Scared of the Bedouin man?
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post #19 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 07:17 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Bush: Why did you kill my son?

So, I guess the basic argument of the right is that it is ok that these men died, because by joining the service, they asked for it. Myself, I see no excuse for what is essentially a stupid waste created by war criminals who somehow managed to bribe their way into running this country.

Here's some more "whiners". Fuck them, right guys?


Sorrow and Debate
A bloody week in Iraq leaves 14 Ohio Marines dead. And the pro-war town that lost its sons begins to ask: is it worth the sacrifice?

By T. Trent Gegax
Newsweek

Aug. 15, 2005 issue - Paul Schroeder and his wife, Rosemary Palmer, spent Wednesday morning in a state of controlled panic. The couple's 23-year-old son, Augie, was a lance corporal with the Ohio-based Third Battalion, 25th Marine Regiment, stationed in western Iraq. Two days earlier, six snipers from his unit had been killed by insurgents, and his parents feared he was among the dead. He wasn't. But Wednesday morning brought news of yet another major attack: 14 Marines were killed when the amphibious assault vehicle they were riding in was blown up. Once again, Schroeder's parents were left to wonder if Marines in dress uniform would be waiting at the door.

Their worst fears were realized a few hours later, when Lt. Col. Kevin Rush, the battalion's commander, and another Marine walked up to the house. "You've had a busy two days, haven't you?" Paul Schroeder recalls saying grimly. Rosemary couldn't bear the delay. "Tell us why you're here," she insisted, trembling. Rush asked if he could come inside and sit down. They went to the kitchen. "Are you the parents of Lance Cpl. Edward Schroeder?" Rush asked quietly. Both parents nodded. "I regret to inform you that your son, Edward August Schroe-der II, was killed today in Haditha, Iraq." As the parents held each other, Schroeder says Rush told them that he understood it would be hard for them to comprehend anything he had to say that day. He told them to take time to let the news sink in, and that they would receive another call the following day. The Marines would take care of all the arrangements.

That solemn, formal ceremony was repeated in homes across Ohio last week. In all, 14 Marines from the state were killed in Iraq. Of the six American snipers killed by insurgents on Monday, four were from Ohio. And 10 of the 14 Marines killed in Wednesday's attack on the amphibious assault vehicle were Ohioans. The state's fallen were all from the 3/25, the Marine Reserves unit that sits in the middle of working-class Brook Park. Many of the people from the town, just outside Cleveland, work in the big Ford plant or the nearby international airport. Though the area leans Democratic—antiwar liberal Dennis Kucinich is its member of Congress—in Brook Park the people tend to be more socially conservative and pro-military. Residents and local politicians say three quarters of the town had, until recently, supported the Iraq war. These days, many now say they aren't so sure.

At Amy Joy Donuts, where residents, many former and active military, come to smoke cigarettes and sip coffee, the war was just about the only thing on people's minds last week. Richard Kusmer, a 76-year-old retired Ford assembly-line foreman, served in the Air Force and voted for George W. Bush. But he says he can no longer stand with the president on Iraq. "Initially I thought the war was a good idea. Not now. All these GIs getting killed just ain't worth it," he says. "It seems like it's never going to end because you're never going to wipe all of those [insurgents] out."

When they aren't mobilized, Marines from the 3/25 frequently jog past the doughnut shop, darting in to stuff down a pastry on the way back to base. Now and then, a homesick Marine will even call the shop from Iraq to get the local gossip. "A lot of people who come in here are angry," says Pat Wilcox, the shop's manager. "They feel like nothing's going to change."

The president still has the staunch support of plenty of people in town. Karen Parker, whose son Lance Cpl. Russell Parker is in the 3/25, stood at her front door for hours last week, worried that the men in dress uniforms would be walking up the front steps. Luckily, they never came. Despite her fears, she says there is no backing away from Iraq. " You can't be for the troops and against the war. Are you going to tell the mother of that child in the casket that you don't believe in what he died for?"

Yet there is little question that support for the war is lower than it was just a few months ago. Last week, in a heavily Republican, pro-Bush Ohio district, GOP candidate Jean Schmidt narrowly won a special election for a congressional seat. Her Dem-ocratic opponent, Paul Hackett, was a major in the Marine Reserves and an Iraq-war vet who forcefully criticized Bush's performance in the war. Hackett lost by just 4,000 votes. The GOP and White House took notice. Newt Gingrich told The Washington Post that the race was a "wake-up call to Republicans."

Hard-hit Ohio isn't the only place where opinions may be shifting. The latest Newsweek Poll found that only 34 percent of U.S. adults now say they approve of the way Bush is handling the situation in Iraq, while 61 percent disapprove. That is the president's lowest rating on Iraq, and the first time it has dropped below 40 percent. Almost two thirds of the public, 64 percent, now think the Iraq war has not made Americans safer from terrorism.

President Bush is mindful of the declining support for the war, but a senior White House official who insisted on anonymity in accordance with White House policy says that isn't surprising, given the level of violence and the number of casualties. But, the official says, "that doesn't mean to say they believe we won't prevail." The official says the president will give a series of speeches in the coming weeks, detailing political progress in Iraq as a way to revive support back home.

That may be a tough sell in parts of Brook Park. At the town's recreation center, where active-duty Marines come to lift weights and play basketball, some staff members are blunt about their doubts. "People are thinking we've got to bring our boys home," says the center's supervisor, Jim Parr, who once backed the war but has changed his mind. Amanda Konery, who also works at the center, had a similar change of heart. "The deaths are building momentum against it," Konery says. "Brook Park is a sad place right now."



Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

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post #20 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-09-2005, 07:34 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Bush: Why did you kill my son?

Quote:
mormit - 8/9/2005 1:00 AM

"Sure, she can change her mind. So can you.

B"

You can wake up and change your mind too.

I voted for Bush in 2000 and regret it dreadfully. Not to big to admit I was very wrong.

The poor woman was probably so in shock that the words of a dip shit were enough to comfort her after loosing her son. Not a situation any of us would want to be in.

She's had a year to reflect.
Drudge is such a lowlife fucking liar. The only people who believe this asshole are idiots.


"Flip-flopping" Americans
Right-wing bloggers are attacking military mom Cindy Sheehan for changing her mind about Iraq. But so have millions of other citizens.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Eric Boehlert



Aug. 9, 2005 | Cindy Sheehan, the angry 48-year-old mom from Vacaville, Calif., whose son died while serving in the Army in Iraq and who has been staging a lonely bring-the-troops-home vigil outside President Bush's ranch beneath the baking Texas sun, has clearly become a thorn in the president's vacationing side. Putting a public and empathetic face on the war's toll in America, Sheehan, whose son, Casey, was killed in April 2004, has posed a very simple request to Bush: Come out and talk to me about Iraq and why my son died. To date, Bush has passed on the invitation, but the minions on the far right have decided to try to knock Sheehan off her media perch, just as more military mothers and fathers opposed to the war are set to join Sheehan's protest.

Taking peculiar pleasure in trying to discredit the small-town mother, right-wingers have been in a tizzy over what they perceive as a flip-flop by Sheehan on Iraq. They excitedly reassure themselves that her alleged inconsistency about the war ought to disqualify her from being a legitimate war critic. Problem is, the oddly playful bloggers, busy mocking Sheehan as a "crazy," "exploited," "left-wing moonbat," aren't really staring down a lone mother who may or may not have shifted her opinion about Bush and the war since 2004.

If the Republican National Committee-fed bloggers looked up from their monitors for a few seconds, they might realize that when they're done with Sheehan they're going to have to discredit a few million other Americans -- because, as recent polls indicate, they, like Sheehan, have turned on the war and place the blame for the mess squarely on Bush's shoulders.

Over the weekend conservatives at the Free Republic unearthed a June 25, 2004, article from Sheehan's hometown newspaper, the Reporter, which detailed Sheehan's visit with Bush at Fort Lewis near Seattle earlier that month. Portions of the article suggested Sheehan was grateful for her time with Bush, in contrast with her current complaints about him. Freepers then passed along the clip to Matt Drudge, who talked about it on his Sunday-night syndicated radio show. On Monday morning he hyped his analysis on his Web site, concluding that Sheehan "has dramatically changed her account about what happened when she met the commander-in-chief last summer!"

The pull quotes from the article included, among others, "'I now know he's sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis,' Cindy said after their meeting. 'I know he's sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he's a man of faith.'"

Bloggers embraced the so-called scoop, demanding to know why Sheehan had changed her mind. "Something has happened to Ms. Sheehan to change her opinion of the President. Until she explains herself, it is very difficult to take her ranting seriously," wrote Conservative Dialysis (its motto: "Removing liberal waste from the American bloodstream"). "Remember, it may very well be that she has an excellent reason for her change in viewpoint. However, until she reveals it to the public, I don't think anyone can take her anti-war ranting seriously."

Again and again the deep thinkers on the right pretended to be stumped -- stumped! -- as to why Sheehan, over a 14-month span, would change her mind about Bush and about Iraq.

By Monday afternoon, the Raw Story got hold of the original Reporter article, in its entirety (which the newspaper has since reposted online), and discovered that Drudge had torn what he considered the incriminating portions of the article out of context.

Here are the portions of the June 24 newspaper clip Drudge purposefully left out: "We haven't been happy with the way the war has been handled," Cindy said. "The president has changed his reasons for being over there every time a reason is proven false or an objective reached."

The article continued: "But in the end, the family decided against such talk, deferring to how they believed Casey would have wanted them to act. In addition, Pat [Sheehan's husband] noted that Bush wasn't stumping for votes or trying to gain a political edge for the upcoming election."

And this: "Sincerity was something Cindy had hoped to find in the meeting. Shortly after Casey died, Bush sent the family a form letter expressing his condolences, and Cindy said she felt it was an impersonal gesture."

So, out of respect for her son and for Bush, Sheehan, clearly uneasy about the war and Bush's handling of it in 2004, opted against a face-to-face confrontation 14 months ago. But now she's itching for one. Put in full context, Drudge's claim of a flip-flop is easily dismissed.

But what if Sheehan were guilty of a full 180-degree turnaround? What if, even in the wake of her son's death in 2004, Sheehan had praised Bush's leadership, only to become a critic by the summer of 2005? What would be so hard to understand about that?

Sheehan herself put it best. Speaking with Air America recently, she noted, "Why is my meeting in June of 2004 relevant? Over 1,100 more soldiers are dead since then, the Downing Street memo report [has come] out, the Senate intelligence report has come out, and the 9/11 Commission report has come out. Saddam is gone, they've had free democratic elections in Iraq, and our troops are still there."

In other words, things change, information accumulates and people react accordingly. Apparently, however, bloggers like Michelle Malkin, who took it upon herself in one of her posts to speak for Sheehan's dead son (does their arrogance know no bounds?), have convinced themselves that thinking people simply do not change their opinions about dynamic issues like war and peace, ever. No matter how strong the insurgency in Iraq grows, no matter how many coalition countries walk away from the rebuilding effort, no matter how many dates are set for Iraq's sovereignty, no matter how many Americans are killed, no matter how many billions of dollars Halliburton pockets with no-bid contracts, no matter how much evidence accumulates that the Bush administration was both dishonest about the war during the run-up and incompetent during the so-called reconstruction, Americans, let alone parents of dead service members, are not supposed to alter their views. They're not supposed to flip-flop.

Somebody forgot to tell the U.S. adult population,
because just within the past few months there's been an awful lot of flip-flopping going on regarding Iraq, with more and more Americans heading for the exits. According to the latest CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, released Monday, 57 percent of American adults think the war has made the United States less safe from terrorism. That's up 18 percentage points in just 60 days.

Additionally, in the same new poll, 54 percent said they believe it was a mistake to send U.S. troops to Iraq, while 44 percent said it was not a mistake. Those figures are reversed, in a 17-point swing, from those in June.

It seems pretty clear that until the mess in Iraq is cleaned up, more and more Americans are going to join Sheehan in opposing the war. And the ranks of alleged flip-floppers will continue to grow.


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Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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