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post #21 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-27-2005, 09:54 PM
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RE: My my, what dirty little secrets you have, Bushilocks

You should leave Bot alone. This stuff about jumping on him because he pointed out how ridiculous it is to compare what American military did to the Nazi regime. Then you try doing what Republican's are always accused of and that is changing the focus of the subject. How it can't always be that you should never use Nazi's because of an idea that no one has suffered as much Jews. I don't think Bot believes that and neither do I. People in Bosnia suffered as great, etc. Perhaps there has never been such an extended suffering on such a grand scale, but that is not the freaking point.

The claim was that what the US has done compares to the Nazi parties systematic extermination of the Jews and anyone deemed undesirables to the Third Reich. Utterly ridicules. That is like comparing a school yard bully with Charles Manson. Bot is correct!!
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post #22 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-27-2005, 10:20 PM
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RE: My my, what dirty little secrets you have, Bushilocks

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Robschaef - 7/27/2005 9:54 PM

You should leave Bot alone. This stuff about jumping on him because he pointed out how ridiculous it is to compare what American military did to the Nazi regime. Then you try doing what Republican's are always accused of and that is changing the focus of the subject. How it can't always be that you should never use Nazi's because of an idea that no one has suffered as much Jews. I don't think Bot believes that and neither do I. People in Bosnia suffered as great, etc. Perhaps there has never been such an extended suffering on such a grand scale, but that is not the freaking point.

The claim was that what the US has done compares to the Nazi parties systematic extermination of the Jews and anyone deemed undesirables to the Third Reich. Utterly ridicules. That is like comparing a school yard bully with Charles Manson. Bot is correct!!
I see, we have to commit atrocities as bad as the Nazis before we've done anything wrong. Why don't people understand this??? Despite the fact that torture IS official policy, the soldiers following orders are the criminals....

Wow, that's a tough one, it's gonna be a while for me to get my head around this, am I stupid?

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post #23 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-27-2005, 11:44 PM
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RE: My my, what dirty little secrets you have, Bushilocks

old300D
I don't think Bot, or anyone else here, ever said that "we never did anything wrong" as you assert.
I think the facts are clear that some soldiers have committed crimes in their abuse of prisoners. This much has been established in open court.
Beyond this, are the accusations that the soldiers were merely following orders, and the comparisons to Nazis.
Some of us require more than an acusation--especially from people with political reasons to make the accusations. I will wait for evidence from a court before I believe this stuff. That does not mean that I am disinclined to believe--just waiting to be convinced. There is no rush; the truth will come out.
As for the comparisons to Nazis. That is completely politically driven. The only reason to invoke that picture is to compel an emotional reaction, similar to the disgust that pictures and movies of the inhumane way the Jews were treated invoke. Again, as Bot has pointed out, the Nazis were following an offically sanctioned public policy of the government. That has not been established by any reputable source that I know. Most of the links I see posted would hardly be called creditable. In fact, the soldiers who committed these atrocities ( if that word is correct) have been, and continue to be officially charged and subject to courts martial. Just because the evidence and decisions rendered by courts do not support your conspiracy theory does not make them untrue.
There is no need to ratchet up the emotional level here--unless there is a political reason for doing so, rather than just an honest search for the truth.
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post #24 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-28-2005, 12:23 AM
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RE: My my, what dirty little secrets you have, Bushilocks

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MS Fowler - 7/27/2005 12:44 AM

As for the comparisons to Nazis. That is completely politically driven...In fact, the soldiers who committed these atrocities ( if that word is correct) have been, and continue to be officially charged and subject to courts martial.
My reference to the Nazi was anything BUT political. Got it? It's NOT political. I was merely referring to the Nazi ACTIONS of degradation and exploition of their prisoners. It is my opinion that you can call yourself whatever you want and follow whatever political beliefs you want, but it is your actions that classify you into the same category labeled "unjust and torturous practices committed against other humans".

One does not have to follow the Nazi political views or label himself as them, but the mere repitition of the actions of these "few" make these individuals no different than doing what the Nazi's did: torturing humans. For what both parties have done, that will never change.

And I suppose you want to believe, in some wild fashion, that our soldiers blessed and warmly welcomed the Iraqis by introducing them to how vulgar and obscene some of us Americans can be. Surely what the soldiers did wasn't atrocious!!!? How can I say that? Now I'm being unfair!

Not. It was atrocious. Get used to the idea.
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post #25 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-28-2005, 03:51 AM
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RE: My my, what dirty little secrets you have, Bushilocks

By that line of reasoning,.... You are currently engaging in an activity that nazis did. Does that mean I can say you are nazi-like? That activity is simply the act of breathing--but it is an activity done by nazis. Sure this is a stupid point--but its made to show the logical fallacy of your argument. For reasonable people to label some activity as nazi-like requires more than a similarity at some point. Thats the point that Bot was making.
But,you are free to call anyone anyname you like--if you think that helps persuade people to your point of view.

As for putting words in my mouth and then attacking me for them--what an original argument! I never made any comment like you suppose. Can you say " Straw man"!
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post #26 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-28-2005, 05:21 AM
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RE: Bushilocks

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BrentG500 - 7/27/2005 10:37 PM

You know our country was founded on two principles: Justice and Freedom.

And there's a pretty good saying, "actions speak louder than words". It's true. I want to give you a hypothetical example. Let's say that a Nazi kidnaps a policeman and then subjects him to torture, humiliation and then ultimately kills him. Two days later, this Nazi person gets caught. Lets say that one person of every army does the same thing to another policeman in this country and they all get caught.

It doesn't matter how they choose to distinguish themselves from one another; their actions of torture, humiliation and then killing make the same in the eyes of law. And since they committed the same crime, they would each receive the same sentence.

Therefore, if a government imitates and repeats some of the same atrocious actions that a different government did, shouldn't they be held accountable?

The bottom line is that I don't care if you call yourself a Nazi, a terrorist, a Jihadist, a solider, a farmer, a President, a government, a whatever - if you commit the same crimes, you should be punished the same way.

You can try to divert the guilt and blame by saying "so and so did this" or "so and so didn't do this" but the fact of the matter is that the crime has been done and there are people responsible. Those in charge should find all those responsible and bring them to justice.

If you think I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.
The major difference is one of policy. It is not the policy of teh gov o fteh USA, nor of teh military, to behave in that fashion. People who get caught get jail. Look at the evidence.

A secondary difference is, well you. Most Americans feel betrayed and outraged by that kind of behavior, we believe that the military represents us and that when they misbehave, for whatever reason, we share the blame and guilt. That was not a problem for the Nazis.

Abusive behavior is wrong. It get's punished. There are 150K or so soldiers, most between 18 and 25. Show me the city in teh USA with a lower crime rate for that age group.

B
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post #27 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-28-2005, 08:15 AM
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RE: My my, what dirty little secrets you have, Bushilocks

Get your heads out of the sand. These actions by our soldiers were not spontaneously dreamed up in separate instances and locations. These "techniques" are policy, excused at the highest levels, from Gonzales and Rumsfeld if not Bushie himself. Who authorized taking photos? The only folks getting prosecuted are on the other side of the camera; these scapegoats are only being punished to shield those who are making the policies and giving the orders so the public is not completely disgusted at the "leaders'" actions.

If the behaviors are the same as previously denounced and vilified regimes, never mind the scale, the crimes are the same and it's fair to label them the same.

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post #28 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-28-2005, 09:11 AM Thread Starter
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RE: My my, what dirty little secrets you have, Bushilocks

Absolutely true. I also find it sickening that one can go to any right wing web site, and find thread after thread demanding the use of nuclear weapons in Iraq or on Islamic holy sites, and then have people with the utter gall, like Botnst here, to say that we are unlike the Germans in our hatred of the Arabs, and in our desire to commit genocide on them. The Republican Party has always been made up of a bunch of racist fucks. The Iraq War is nothing but the continuation of the racist, colonialist policies instituted by the English. Its purpose is to form concentration camps they call "countries", so that these people can be segregated for the purpose of political control and for easy extermination if necessary, while we easily steal their natural resources. Did I say racist fucks? I should have said "Nazi fucks". We pay for the Saudi Arabian, Jordanian and Egyptian security apparatti, the modern form of SS camp guards. Our whole policy is a public charade whose main aim is to bullshit the American people while the oil whores grow rich.
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post #29 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-28-2005, 09:18 AM
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RE: My my, what dirty little secrets you have, Bushilocks

The problem is that some people here cannot accept the fact that this invasion was wrong, the people that executed are criminals and that the US gained nothing.
Terrorism is on the rise and nobody is safe anymore. The alquaida is a criminal organization and now has more followers than ever in the Arab world and elsewhere, this is dangerous. The problem now is that any legitimate defense by any Arabs or Muslims in any situation will be linked to those butchers as if the two go together. That the US’s main beneficiary from its invasions and destructions is very happy about. At two billion dollars a week in spending why such a country still asks for more money to protect itself? From whom? There is no one left to really fight for the rights of people stuck in CAMPS for the last 50 years. The US is blind and can never be a real broker; everyone knows that except the junta that runs it and their robotic followers that think that Rush Limbaugh is the Messiah and congressmen such as Tancredo as the holders of the ultimate solution.
That’s the problem with some people, they can’t stand up on their own by detaching themselves from party lines and look for themselves in an objective manner. They simply can’t so it because they are comfortable with “their way of life�.
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post #30 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-28-2005, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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RE: My my, what dirty little secrets you have, Bushilocks

Quite a coincidence, isn't it Shabah, that Hitler was able to exterminate the Jews because he was able to link them to Communism, and now we have Bush linking what were for the most part peaceful Arabs that had no interest in the events of 9-11, to the Al-Queda terrorists?
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