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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-24-2005, 09:09 PM Thread Starter
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Capitol Hill dares to threaten U.S. monarchy

White House threatens veto on detainee policies

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The White House on Thursday threatened to veto a massive Senate bill for $442 billion in next year's defense programs if it moves to regulate the Pentagon's treatment of detainees or sets up a commission to investigate operations at Guantanamo Bay prison and elsewhere.

The Bush administration, under fire for the indefinite detention of enemy combatants at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba and questions over whether its policies led to horrendous abuses at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, put lawmakers on notice it did not want them legislating on the matter.

In a statement, the White House said such amendments would "interfere with the protection of Americans from terrorism by diverting resources from the war."

"If legislation is presented that would restrict the president's authority to protect Americans effectively from terrorist attack and bring terrorists to justice," the bill could be vetoed, the statement said.

Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain, who endured torture as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, said after meeting at the Capitol with Vice President Dick Cheney that he still intended to offer amendments next week "on the standard of treatment of prisoners."

South Carolina Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham, who was working on legislation defining the legal status of enemy combatants being held in Guantanamo, also said he would offer an amendment.

They were working with Armed Services Committee Chairman John Warner of Virginia on amendments intended to prevent further abuses in the wake of the scandal over sexual abuse and mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison and harsh, degrading interrogations at Guantanamo.

Possible measures included barring the holding of "ghost" detainees whose names are not disclosed, codifying a ban against cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment, and using the Army manual as a basis for all interrogations.

Democrats on Thursday said they would push an amendment to establish an independent national commission to investigate policies that led to abuses of prisoners at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and elsewhere.

Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan, the Armed Services Committee's top Democrat, said the commission on detainee abuses was needed because "the most serious scandal in recent military history needs an objective investigation."

Levin said the commission should be modeled on the bipartisan commission that probed the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Sen. Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts said the Pentagon's own investigations into detainee abuses left "huge gaps. ... The military reviewing itself, that's not good enough."

Pentagon "talking points" against the special detainee commission circulating around the Capitol said the issue had been "thoroughly investigated" and "a new open-ended investigation" would add "nothing but political theater."

The talking points said reforms were under way, and the Pentagon "has the matter well in hand. The department and the services are doing everything possible to address this challenge."

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-24-2005, 09:38 PM
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RE: Capitol Hill dares to threaten U.S. monarchy

I wonder what it would take for the standard of treatment and interrogation of terrorists to be scrapped in favor of expedience? How many US cities would have to be completely nuked off the map before desparation disposes of the "holier/greater than thou" attitude that we have adopted relative to how detainees are treated by us/them?

If New York city were evaporated, would Washington protest "harsh treatment" of detainees to gleen the info necessary to prevent Philadelphia from the same fate?

I am not criticizing as much as curious. I know human nature. When we are desparate enough, we will shed the pretense of the high road about which we boast.

Are the terrorists capable of nuking a US city now? Probably not. Since when has that ever stopped them? They will plot and prepare patiently until the day when they can trigger a nuke or two. Then what? How has all this potificating and posturing been for the greater good? What, we are better dead people than the terrorists? That brings me little comfort.

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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-24-2005, 09:57 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Capitol Hill dares to threaten U.S. monarchy

Does this mean that you support the concept of absolute power in the hands of an amoral rube? Do you support the patriot act as well? Why not just hand the reins over to Bin Laden right now?

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-24-2005, 10:12 PM
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RE: Capitol Hill dares to threaten U.S. monarchy

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GermanStar - 7/24/2005 11:57 PM

Does this mean that you support the concept of absolute power in the hands of an amoral rube? Do you support the patriot act as well? Why not just hand the reins over to Bin Laden right now?
I don't think it means anything. I'm just curious. Human nature will dictate the response when the pressure is high enough. The question is how high will the pressure need to get and in what form must it be before the survival mode assumes control from the nose in the air mode?

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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-24-2005, 10:29 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Capitol Hill dares to threaten U.S. monarchy

I believe those types of decisions are best left to the workings of our government, rather than an individual. I also believe that responses to reality rather than paranoia, are more likely to be of a sound and rational nature.

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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-24-2005, 10:37 PM
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RE: Capitol Hill dares to threaten U.S. monarchy

Quote:
azimuth - 7/24/2005 11:38 PM

I wonder what it would take for the standard of treatment and interrogation of terrorists to be scrapped in favor of expedience? How many US cities would have to be completely nuked off the map before desparation disposes of the "holier/greater than thou" attitude that we have adopted relative to how detainees are treated by us/them?

If New York city were evaporated, would Washington protest "harsh treatment" of detainees to gleen the info necessary to prevent Philadelphia from the same fate?

I am not criticizing as much as curious. I know human nature. When we are desparate enough, we will shed the pretense of the high road about which we boast.

Are the terrorists capable of nuking a US city now? Probably not. Since when has that ever stopped them? They will plot and prepare patiently until the day when they can trigger a nuke or two. Then what? How has all this potificating and posturing been for the greater good? What, we are better dead people than the terrorists? That brings me little comfort.
The threshold for mistreating innocent humans should not be seriously affected by attrocities committed by others. The issue here is not coddling those who would do us harm, it is holding people identified as potentially dangerous to us by unreliable sources, indefinitely, then mistreating them to gain "intelligence" or other information from them to support the contention they were seeking to do us harm.

Our present situation is one of our own making. By the same crowd who is being slowly outed as a group of thugs in this Plame affair. Bad decisions are distinguised from good decisions by one very important characteristic. When you make a good decision you do not have to face making the decision again.

The answer to 9-11 was to use our resources to end the influence of Osamma and Al Qaeda. How did 9-11 get turned into a quasi religious mission to bring "democracy" to Iraq? Through lies and poor judgement by the present administration. How is it that treatment of prisoners is always in the news? By endorsing the use of means to "break" prisoners that are outside the range of what was understood by the average American and member of the international, democratic, community as minimally acceptable, and then lying about it.

There is a pattern here. Support the lowering of the standard of what it means to be an American if you wish. I won't stand by cheering the dismantling of our international identity in the name of perpetuating Mr. Bush's lies. Jim
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-24-2005, 10:58 PM
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RE: Capitol Hill dares to threaten U.S. monarchy

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JimSmith - 7/25/2005 12:37 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 7/24/2005 11:38 PM

I wonder what it would take for the standard of treatment and interrogation of terrorists to be scrapped in favor of expedience? How many US cities would have to be completely nuked off the map before desparation disposes of the "holier/greater than thou" attitude that we have adopted relative to how detainees are treated by us/them?

If New York city were evaporated, would Washington protest "harsh treatment" of detainees to gleen the info necessary to prevent Philadelphia from the same fate?

I am not criticizing as much as curious. I know human nature. When we are desparate enough, we will shed the pretense of the high road about which we boast.

Are the terrorists capable of nuking a US city now? Probably not. Since when has that ever stopped them? They will plot and prepare patiently until the day when they can trigger a nuke or two. Then what? How has all this potificating and posturing been for the greater good? What, we are better dead people than the terrorists? That brings me little comfort.
The threshold for mistreating innocent humans should not be seriously affected by attrocities committed by others. The issue here is not coddling those who would do us harm, it is holding people identified as potentially dangerous to us by unreliable sources, indefinitely, then mistreating them to gain "intelligence" or other information from them to support the contention they were seeking to do us harm.

Our present situation is one of our own making. By the same crowd who is being slowly outed as a group of thugs in this Plame affair. Bad decisions are distinguised from good decisions by one very important characteristic. When you make a good decision you do not have to face making the decision again.

The answer to 9-11 was to use our resources to end the influence of Osamma and Al Qaeda. How did 9-11 get turned into a quasi religious mission to bring "democracy" to Iraq? Through lies and poor judgement by the present administration. How is it that treatment of prisoners is always in the news? By endorsing the use of means to "break" prisoners that are outside the range of what was understood by the average American and member of the international, democratic, community as minimally acceptable, and then lying about it.

There is a pattern here. Support the lowering of the standard of what it means to be an American if you wish. I won't stand by cheering the dismantling of our international identity in the name of perpetuating Mr. Bush's lies. Jim
What should not be done and what is done relative to the hypothetical overall survival mode of a terror stricken population are sometimes divergent.

I think the theory behind bringing democracy to the middle east specifically Iraq was to give an alternative to potential terrorists through actual improved life experience or the example of what one could have/be, were one to seek and secure such opportunity for him/herself. Whether the principle proves valid remains to be seen.

I'm not supporting anything like what you have placed me doing. I am wondering aloud how long JimSmith will high brow while the sword is at his family's neck. Why his predicament is what it is, is irrelevant.

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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-24-2005, 11:06 PM
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RE: Capitol Hill dares to threaten U.S. monarchy

Quote:
GermanStar - 7/25/2005 12:29 AM

I believe those types of decisions are best left to the workings of our government, rather than an individual. I also believe that responses to reality rather than paranoia, are more likely to be of a sound and rational nature.
How long do you think the people will allow the govt. to act thier behalf if the general perception is that the feds are ineffective in the face of certain annihilation?

If a major city were vaporized and the horror of nuclear fallout were allowed to be broadcast, paranoia would be reasonable and rational sound behavior would be a relative calculation.

I use nuclear holocaust as an example. It is only one of many possibilities with which our enemy is itching to destroy us and has been since decades ago.

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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-25-2005, 04:32 AM
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RE: Capitol Hill dares to threaten U.S. monarchy

Quote:
azimuth - 7/25/2005 12:58 AM

What should not be done and what is done relative to the hypothetical overall survival mode of a terror stricken population are sometimes divergent.

I think the theory behind bringing democracy to the middle east specifically Iraq was to give an alternative to potential terrorists through actual improved life experience or the example of what one could have/be, were one to seek and secure such opportunity for him/herself. Whether the principle proves valid remains to be seen.

I'm not supporting anything like what you have placed me doing. I am wondering aloud how long JimSmith will high brow while the sword is at his family's neck. Why his predicament is what it is, is irrelevant.
Discussing the hypothetical actions of a hypothetically terror stricken population is potentially hypothetically entertaining. In reference to the present quandry of the Bush administration's relaxation of definition of acceptable treatment of hundreds of people incarcerated on very slim evidence over relatively long periods of time makes the subject matter less hypothetical and more an example of another amoral act of the Bush administration.

When was the theory of bringing democracy to Iraq spawned and foisted on the American people as a good reason to be in Iraq today? I think it was sometime after the lie about WMD that was used to strike terror in psyche of America became apparent. When did Congress agree to allow such a use of American lives and material wealth? It didn't. Because this one of Bush's lies of desperation, maybe even panic or terror at being discovered as a liar and a murderer, seems to have gained some unexplainable traction based on the entire nation taking a pragmatic view of the horror. Something like, "we are there, we might as well bring them democracy, yeah, that's the ticket, we won't talk about WMD anymore, it is a God given mission to bring them Democracy" that is being washed down with more lies every day and seems to be going down better than realizing we were all suckered by Bush into immoral acts. Bringing democracy to Iraq by force was never part of some grand scheme that was debated and agreed upon up front. It is another cover for the lies the Bush administration fed us. Where I grew up that was called bullshit and I was not trained to expect or enjoy a daily dose of it with every meal.

Wonder aloud about me as long as you wish. That is truly hypothetical. But be assured I will never consider killing an innocent neighbor because another is threatening me or my family a suitable course of action. It is my experience that such situations are either survived using reason or cannot be survived at all. What you suggest is like being on plane that is being threatened by some mechanical failure, and, when you see the threat for what it is, deciding to kill the stranger in the seat next to you because in your moment of terror you figure he or she had something to do with it because, based on appearances, they share genetic material with the 9-11 hijackers. Your defense would not hold up well in court. Ours for mistreating prisoners won't hold up well either, once all the "terror strickeness" is shown to be due to manipulation rooted in lies from the Bush administration. Call it what you want Azimuth, but excusing the principle of personal responsibillity is not a card I was dealt so I cannot play it. It is apparent you are trying to fabricate such a card for some future use. Jim
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-25-2005, 05:36 AM
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RE: Capitol Hill dares to threaten U.S. monarchy

Some places need democracy 'brought' to them ebcause tehir government murders folks who try to bring it about from within. But that is not a best-case solution.

More usual is to provide incentives for democratization. Usually trade or some such. It is a much longer-term process and just as with democratization by force, it is not a certain outcome.

The best solution is that which is unfolding in Lebanon. The changes comes from the people in such unified and overwhelming numbers that the leading power structure cannot resist it and no party can control it. That was the power that brought the final collapse of the iron curtain. But unlike Lebanon, had the free democracies not stood against communism, that particular meatgrinder could have had a thousand-year reich.

I think that the USA played neither an overt nor covert role in Lebanon. I also think that the Lebanese would eventually have removed Syria. But I also believe that had the USA not been sitting on Syria's border and had the USA not been seriously pissed-off at Syria, the army and security police of Syria would have been much more likely to have treated the Lebanese democrats much more harshly. They certainly had in the past and the only thing that had really changed in teh region was the forced retirement of Mr Hussein.

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