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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-13-2005, 09:00 PM Thread Starter
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Molly Ivens, an honest Texan

CROW EATEN HERE: This is a horror. In a column written June 28, I asserted that more Iraqis (civilians) had now been killed in this war than had been killed by Saddam Hussein over his 24-year rule. WRONG. Really, really wrong.

The only problem is figuring out by how large a factor I was wrong. I had been keeping an eye on civilian deaths in Iraq for a couple of months, waiting for the most conservative estimates to creep over 20,000, which I had fixed in my mind as the number of Iraqi civilians Saddam had killed.

The high-end estimate of Iraqi civilian deaths in this war is 100,000, according to a Johns Hopkins University study published in the British medical journal The Lancet last October, but I was sticking to the low-end, most conservative estimates because I didn't want to be accused of exaggeration.

Ha! I could hardly have been more wrong, no matter how you count Saddam's killing of civilians. According to Human Rights Watch, Hussein killed several hundred thousand of his fellow citizens. The massacre of the Kurdish Barzani tribe in 1983 killed at least 8,000; the infamous gas attack on the Kurdish village of Halabja killed 5,000 in 1988; and seized documents from Iraqi security organizations show 182,000 were murdered during the Anfal ethnic cleansing campaign against Kurds, also in 1988.

In 1991, following the first Gulf War, both the Kurds and the Shiites rebelled. The allied forces did not intervene, and Saddam brutally suppressed both uprisings and drained the southern marshes that had been home to a local population for more than 5,000 years.

Saddam's regime left 271 mass graves, with more still being discovered. That figure alone was the source for my original mistaken estimate of 20,000. Saddam's widespread use of systematic torture, including rape, has been verified by the U.N. Committee on Human Rights and other human rights groups over the years.

There are wildly varying estimates of the number of civilians, especially babies and young children, who died as a result of the sanctions that followed the Gulf War. While it is true that the ill-advised sanctions were put in place by the United Nations, I do not see that that lessens Hussein's moral culpability, whatever blame attaches to the sanctions themselves -- particularly since Saddam promptly corrupted the Oil for Food Program put in place to mitigate the effects of the sanctions, and used the proceeds to build more palaces, etc.

There have been estimates as high as 1 million civilians killed by Saddam, though most agree on the 300,000 to 400,000 range, making my comparison to 20,000 civilian dead in this war pathetically wrong.

I was certainly under no illusions regarding Saddam Hussein, whom I have opposed through human rights work for decades. My sincere apologies. It is unforgivable of me not have checked. I am so sorry.

Molly Ivins writes about politics, Texas and other bizarre happenings.
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-13-2005, 09:04 PM
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RE: Molly Ivens, an honest Texan

perhaps we found the weapon of mass destruction hiding in a spider hole months ago...

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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-13-2005, 09:07 PM
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RE: Molly Ivens, an honest Texan

Need four more honest Texans before God sets fire and brimstone on the Lone Star State, particularly on and around the Crawford Ranch.

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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-13-2005, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Molly Ivens, an honest Texan

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naomilla - 7/13/2005 11:07 PM

Need four more honest Texans before God sets fire and brimstone on the Lone Star State, particularly on and around the Crawford Ranch.
Whatever you say.

I have always enjoyed Iven's writing ability. She is very good at irony and it just makes me smile when she uses ironic metaphors like a surgical instrument.

Good to see her publicly maintain a personal standard of integrity. I'd love to see lots of other Texans accept her standard as their own. Heck, it would be good for the whole blessed country to embrace it.

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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-13-2005, 09:32 PM
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RE: Molly Ivens, an honest Texan

Today Iraq -- tomorrow Grand Fenwick! Count me in!

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-13-2005, 09:34 PM
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RE: Molly Ivens, an honest Texan

Pre and post war civilian deaths are irrelevant, since as has been acknowledged by at least one honest American, Iraq happens to be sitting on our oil--lets not be distracted by such trifling matters.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-14-2005, 10:27 AM
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RE: Molly Ivens, an honest Texan

Botnst takes the official Party Line position on the war, like good newspeak, the new explanation which replaces the old explantion, WMDs, with "Saddam was a bad guy". He ignores the glaring fact (and his own hypocrisy as a self professed libertarian) that the purpose of the US Army and Air Forces is to protect the United States from foreign enemies. It is not an organization constituted to spank bad guys, liberate the unfree, or to build shithouses for Arabs. The President takes an oath to only use these forces to protect and defend the United States. Legally, the President was required to show that is what he was going to do in Iraq. He did so with a pack of trumped up lies, and then proceeded to use and continues to use our Armed Forces in Iraq as his own social welfare agency for the country of Iraq, social welfare that has the aim of making Iraq a place where oil companies can do business. I'm sure Ms. Ivins agrees.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-14-2005, 01:32 PM
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RE: Molly Ivens, an honest Texan

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Botnst - 7/13/2005 10:00 PM
I asserted that more Iraqis (civilians) had now been killed in this war than had been killed by Saddam Hussein over his 24-year rule. WRONG. Really, really wrong.
Give us a little bit more credit here!

We've been a it a couple of years only, while Saddam had decades to perpetrate these massacres. Do you think that computed on a death per day basis, our technological advantage over his rudimentary techniques would show better?

“I feel so miserable without you; it’s almost like having you here.”
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-14-2005, 07:53 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Molly Ivens, an honest Texan

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Zeitgeist - 7/13/2005 11:34 PM

Pre and post war civilian deaths are irrelevant, since as has been acknowledged by at least one honest American, Iraq happens to be sitting on our oil--lets not be distracted by such trifling matters.
Maybe, but honesty and integrity are always relevant.

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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-14-2005, 08:01 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Molly Ivens, an honest Texan

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kvining - 7/14/2005 12:27 PM

Botnst takes the official Party Line position on the war, like good newspeak, the new explanation which replaces the old explantion, WMDs, with "Saddam was a bad guy". He ignores the glaring fact (and his own hypocrisy as a self professed libertarian) that the purpose of the US Army and Air Forces is to protect the United States from foreign enemies. It is not an organization constituted to spank bad guys, liberate the unfree, or to build shithouses for Arabs. The President takes an oath to only use these forces to protect and defend the United States. Legally, the President was required to show that is what he was going to do in Iraq. He did so with a pack of trumped up lies, and then proceeded to use and continues to use our Armed Forces in Iraq as his own social welfare agency for the country of Iraq, social welfare that has the aim of making Iraq a place where oil companies can do business. I'm sure Ms. Ivins agrees.
You take the party line of apologist-in-chief. Oh please Mr Al Queda Man, don't hate me! I just want to be understood, Booo-hooo!! Wah-wah.



Legally, the president has teh war powers act (which IMO, should be rescinded) which allows him to go to war without Congressional approval for a month or two. And then offer a finding and so forth. By act of Congress, a president can engage the country in war anytime, anywhere and Congress can do nothing. That's how we got into Vietnam and other military adventures.

However, in this case, Congress authorized the president to do what he felt was necessary to fx the Iraq problem. Hey, your boys and girls gave him that power, too. Look it up!

Why did they vote as they did? Because they saw the same evidence as the president and the evidence his predicessor had seen and concluded taht Saddam had to go. You don't like it, I guess. Toughm toenails. You may wish to ask your party boys and girls why they voted to support the president. Nooooo. It's much easier to demonize the other side. Nothing dishonest about that, is there?

The purpose of the Armed Forces are to carry-out the lawful orders of the Commander in Chief.

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