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post #1 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-07-2005, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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war a bad idea

You europe people still think us kickin there ass is a bad idea?

Its sad when your country gets blwn the fuck up. Im still bitter about 9/11.

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post #2 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-07-2005, 09:26 PM
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post #3 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-07-2005, 09:44 PM
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WAR - what is it GOOD FOR???

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post #4 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-09-2005, 01:27 AM
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RE: war a bad idea

Quote:
DEATHERAGE - 7/8/2005 2:32 AM

You europe people still think us kickin there ass is a bad idea?

Its sad when your country gets blwn the fuck up. Im still bitter about 9/11.

Derka Derka needs to die!

Speaking as one of the 'europe people' I agree with you it is sad when your country gets blown up. 9/11 was horific in every sense of the word and we have now had a small and unpleasant taste of it ourselves. Together yes we surely kicked their asses.... or did we? Yes we kicked Sadam out of power, eventually tracked his cowering ass down and captured him, kicked his armies' butt and have begun to re-structure Iraq. Great. Smashing. Lovely. Now if we could only track down the real bastards responsible then there might have been a point to the whole bloody mess. But hey, as long as we're kicking somebodies ass then it must be ok.
I have many Iraqi's working for me within my company here in the UK, most of them asylum seekers, most of them thoroughly nice people and all glad to be rid of Sadam, but they all share the view that removing Sadam will have little or no effect on Al Quieda, terrorist bombings or preventing another 9/11 from happening again weather it be in the US, the UK or any one of the allied countries.
What I'm trying to say here is that 'we' should not be rubbing our hands with glee, thinking we kicked their asses - we kicked one man out of power and trounced his army, thats all. Its not over yet as London has just proved - they are pretty much invisible, they are certainly determined and if they are willing to give their lives to kill many then there is little we can do to stop it. Intelligence services on both sides of the pond are obviously not as 'intelligent' as they need to be... so I say again...who is kicking who's ass here? [?][:(]
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post #5 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-09-2005, 08:47 AM
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Slk230UK99, don't go by everything you see on the TV ...

Those in the know have a much better handle on what's going on in the world. Sadam is only a symptom, and a small one at that. He may or may not have been directly involved with the AlQuada attacks in our countries, but he did allow them to set up training camps, and probably funded them as well. Some of us understand that Bin Laden and his minions are being protected by "friendly" and not so friendly leaders in Arabia and Persia. It doesn't matter, sooner or later "we" meaning ALL the good guys NOT just the US, Britain, Italy, and many others, will burn their collective butts. In the mean time we will continue to have nasty incidents like Thursday, and Madrid, and 911....
The facts of the matter are simple: In a guerilla war, a determined enemy can take out specific targets no matter how well protected. That's just the way it is, but who wins the war is more often those that have the will and the firepower to take the war to the enemy. Some of us may very well be rubbing our hands with glee, but as I said, not those in the know, but I'd be willing to bet that AlQuada was when they scored a victory over another bunch of "innocent" civilians.
At least "WE" try to get combatants.

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post #6 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-09-2005, 09:29 AM
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RE: war a bad idea

The question for me has always been whether we are kicking the right asses or not:

http://reprints.msnbc.com/id/5922170/

Saddam was not an ally of the religious fundementalist jihadi movement, in fact he was virulently opposed to it. By attacking the Iraqis, a people innocent of involvement in 9-11, we have created an entirely new terrorist recruiting and training ground, and by killing innocent civilians we have legitimized them killing ours in retaliation. The tone of the first post shows how we have entered a world-wide version of the Palestine-Israeli conflict - a neverending cycle of bombings and retaliations, fueled by people who believe they are giving the other side what they deserve. If the US and Britain had acted morally, kept the focus on maintaining the high ground, they could have continued to portray these people as the murderers they are - instead they chose to use 9-11 as an excuse to attack a country that had nothing to do with it, and our actions there have made the US and the British the largest terrorist faction in the Middle East, - in the use of military weapons in civilian population centers, they have shown themselves to be no better the terrorists. How can we now claim to be victims in this war in the face of this:

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm




Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

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post #7 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-09-2005, 09:36 AM
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RE: Slk230UK99, don't go by everything you see on the TV ...

Quote:
Bruce R. - 7/9/2005 10:47 AM

Those in the know have a much better handle on what's going on in the world. Sadam is only a symptom, and a small one at that. He may or may not have been directly involved with the AlQuada attacks in our countries, but he did allow them to set up training camps, and probably funded them as well. Some of us understand that Bin Laden and his minions are being protected by "friendly" and not so friendly leaders in Arabia and Persia. It doesn't matter, sooner or later "we" meaning ALL the good guys NOT just the US, Britain, Italy, and many others, will burn their collective butts. In the mean time we will continue to have nasty incidents like Thursday, and Madrid, and 911....
The facts of the matter are simple: In a guerilla war, a determined enemy can take out specific targets no matter how well protected. That's just the way it is, but who wins the war is more often those that have the will and the firepower to take the war to the enemy. Some of us may very well be rubbing our hands with glee, but as I said, not those in the know, but I'd be willing to bet that AlQuada was when they scored a victory over another bunch of "innocent" civilians.
At least "WE" try to get combatants.
He did not allow them to set up training camps. That is one of many lies fed to us in the run up to the war:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/16/911.commission/

Those training camps you are referring to were located in Kurdistan, an area of Iraq beyond the reach of Saddam due to the protection given Kurdistan by the US and the British after the Gulf War. Those training camps were meant to be used as much against Saddam as they were to be used against "unIslamic" governments in the Middle East. If they had in fact existed in the way you claim, this entire war in Iraq would be justified. The simple fact is, they did not.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #8 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-09-2005, 09:58 AM
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RE: war a bad idea

I really dont want to get into a huge debate on this - everyone obviously has their own idea on who and what is at fault here. Kvining - thanks for your support on that one.... BruceR - if you are part of that elite that is 'so in the know' perhaps you could contact the security services and let them know where Bin Laden is - 'we' would certainly appreciate it. And contrary to what you think from your moral highground some of us do more than gather our facts from the tv...especially american tv. Good day to you.[^]
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post #9 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-09-2005, 10:05 AM
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RE: war a bad idea

The poster who stated this is a war that exists as a state of mind rather than a war of geographic areas hit it right on the head. This is the first great war of the Internet Age, the first great war after the Communications Revolution. The war will be fought in the mind. The Bush administration's policy has changed that mind picture from one of world sympathy to one of seeing us as a bunch of nazis. The man "in the know" here only seems to know propaganda falsehoods. He is a victim of those who are using the media to wash his brain, a victim of war, a new kind of war. He believes he knows truth, yet spreads falsehoods for a faction that needs those falsehoods spread to justify their murder. He is an unwitting soldier of evil. In the end, the truth will win.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #10 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-09-2005, 10:39 AM
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RE: war a bad idea


A look in the mirror for America

By Derrick Z. Jackson | July 8, 2005

The Boston Globe

IN HIS INITIAL reaction yesterday to the London transit bombings, President Bush decried ''people killing innocent people." He said: ''The contrast couldn't be clearer between the intentions and the hearts of those of us who care deeply about human rights and human liberty and those who kill -- those who have got such evil in their heart that they will take the lives of innocent folks."

This came a week and a half after Bush invoked the innocent in his Fort Bragg, N.C., speech in an attempt to shore up sagging American support for his invasion and occupation of Iraq. Doggedly tying 9/11 to Saddam Hussein even though no tie existed, Bush said of global terrorists: ''There is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take. We see the nature of the enemy in terrorists who exploded car bombs along a busy shopping street in Baghdad, including one outside a mosque. We see the nature of the enemy in terrorists who sent a suicide bomber to a teaching hospital in Mosul. We see the nature of the enemy in terrorists who behead civilian hostages and broadcast their atrocities for the world to see."

Bush also said the enemy will fail. ''The terrorists can kill the innocent, but they cannot stop the advance of freedom," he said. Britain's Prime Minister Tony Blair said the ''slaughter of innocent people" will fail to cower the British people, and Canada's Prime Minister Paul Martin called the attack an ''unspeakable attack on the innocent."

It was all appropriate in the moment. In a greater context, there is a tragic hollowness. The world, of course, shares the sympathies of Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York, who said the London bombings were a ''despicable, cowardly act." Yet every invoking of the innocents also reminds us of our despicable, cowardly killing of innocent Iraqi civilians.

Or perhaps you forgot about them. That was by design. We have rightfully mourned the loss of nearly 3,000 people on 9/11. We have begun mourning the loss of about 40 people in London. We have mourned the loss of 1,751 US soldiers, who, bless them, were following orders of their commander in chief. But to this day, there has been no major acknowledgement, let alone apology, by Bush or Blair for the massive amounts of carnage we created in a war waged over what turned out to be a lie, the nonexistent weapons of mass destruction.

These innocents never existed, either in Iraq or Afghanistan. ''We don't do body counts," said both General Tommy Franks, former Iraqi commander, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. When Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt was asked about the images of American soldiers killing innocent civilians on Arab television, Kimmitt said: ''My solution is quite simple: Change the channel. Change the channel to a legitimate, authoritative, honest news station. The stations that are showing Americans intentionally killing women and children are not legitimate news sources. That is propaganda. And that is lies."

The United States waged its own war of propaganda by refusing to conduct a legitimate, authoritative, honest accounting of the deaths of innocent civilians. As it urged people to change the channel, the Bush administration cut off all channels to finding out what we did to women, men, and children who were shopping, working, or leaving their mosques. In an invasion based on falsehoods, the truth of the civilian carnage might have been too hard for Americans to take, and support for the war might have ended in the first few weeks.

The propaganda of an invasion with invisible innocents surely allowed Bush to seamlessly switch his stated reason from the unique horrors of WMD to liberating an oppressed people. It is a lot easier to tell the world you are their great liberator if you do not have to own up to the thousands of dead people who will never get the chance to vote in that free election. It sounds a little bit like people who say African-Americans should be thankful for slavery because they are no longer in Africa.

Worse, this denial of death, in a war that did not have to happen, is sure to fuel the very terrorism we say we will defeat. The innocents in the so-called war on terror are always ''our" citizens or the citizens of our allies. The only innocent Iraqis are those killed by ''insurgents." Our soldiers clearly did not intend to kill innocents. But this posturing of America as the great innocent, when everyone knows we kill innocents ourselves, is likely only to make us look more like the devil in the eyes of a suicide bomber.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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