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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-29-2005, 10:46 AM
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RE: I have a difficult time understanding when a company makes $17 biilion in sales,

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Robschaef - 6/28/2005 6:21 PM

You know we seem to have become a bunch of lazy good for little SOB’s. Do you really think the government can stop the outsourcing of jobs to the global economy? What makes you think that the world wants to pay for US goods and services? Most of them are crap. We are no longer the leader in these areas, and our citizens don’t want to buy US products either. Maybe we could protest by not purchasing goods from companies that have outsourced. Yeah, that is the ticket. Don’t buy any more gas, or Pizza Hut, or just about anything you use the telephone to place an order or get service. Well, at least you can get bread and fresh veggies at the store right.

Its time for American’s to get off their arse’s and make a difference again. The world economy will pay premium prices for the best products and services. Ones that are top notch above the rest. Large portions of the jobs in this country are supplied by small businesses. If I were giving advise to a recent college grad or imminent graduate. Work for a small firm, but do a better job than anyone ever has before.
One must ask the question: why did we lose this leadership? As much as it offends your political idealogy, the answer to that question is that the government has become less and less involved in spending money on technology that businesses are unable to invest in due to market conditions. Computer technology, semi-conductors, software advances, hell, most of the modern world, all came about because the US Government used public funds to finance large scale projects. Starting with Reagan, this has decreased to the point it is non-existant, or irrelevent to what we need. The Space program has been involved in getting men to fly in circles around the planet for the past twenty years. There is no large scale projects in the one area we need the most - energy self-suffiency. There is no large scale projects to bring automation and robotics to a level where our factories can compete with slave labor. The only technology we lead in is the technology of murdering people. (Some fucking "Christian Nation"). Meanwhile, the Chinese, Japanese and European governments understand that this is government's role - to finance foward thinking genius and bring about a new technological age.


Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-29-2005, 12:36 PM
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RE: I have a difficult time understanding when a company makes $17 biilion in sales,



Well, Carnage, Rockefeller, Ford, etc. Did these people have government financing? I understand what you are saying. It would benefit the US as a whole if the government would finance a way for our manufacturing to compete on a global scale. Something like the agriculture subsidies is where you are going with that I guess. I see problems with that as well. Who gets the help? What if your product produces green house gases? Are you penalized for that? Do you not get the new technology because of that?

Japan got where it is today because we brought them over here and said learn from us. They did and improved what we had going. We matched that and now there is only room for improvement in wages or land, etc. So we did it to ourselves.
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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-30-2005, 04:30 AM
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RE: I have a difficult time understanding when a company makes $17 biilion in sales,

KV,
You ask if helping money to flow to fascist dictatotships is what we should do. By the context, I assume you mean to China.
I thought it was your contention that WE are the fascist state that threatens global peace?! Could it be that there are worse fascists in the world than W?
I'm shocked!
I still maintain that the only way to redirect money from going to lowest cost/wages areas of production is, in reality, a tax, in the form of higher prices, and lowered standard of living for the US. I suppose you feel that would be proper US policy; maybe, in the larger picture it is. But with the inflamed rhetoric around here, it is difficult to see the core issues. Too much of your efforts seem directed at simply regaing power for the dems. Keep the argument on this economic tract and lets see where it goes.
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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-30-2005, 08:32 AM
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RE: I have a difficult time understanding when a company makes $17 biilion in sales,

Is this an effective arguement MS? It seems a common one: They are worse than us, so why should we be concerned? Applies to torture, applies to infringement on liberty. Why shouldn't we strive to protect our way of government and protection of liberty, rather than taking comfort that we are not as bad as communist china?

OBK #35

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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-30-2005, 11:34 AM
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RE: I have a difficult time understanding when a company makes $17 biilion in sales,

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Robschaef - 6/29/2005 2:36 PM



Well, Carnage, Rockefeller, Ford, etc. Did these people have government financing? I understand what you are saying. It would benefit the US as a whole if the government would finance a way for our manufacturing to compete on a global scale. Something like the agriculture subsidies is where you are going with that I guess. I see problems with that as well. Who gets the help? What if your product produces green house gases? Are you penalized for that? Do you not get the new technology because of that?

Japan got where it is today because we brought them over here and said learn from us. They did and improved what we had going. We matched that and now there is only room for improvement in wages or land, etc. So we did it to ourselves.

Government action does not have to be direct, as you seem to assume. Do you know what country has had the greatest increase in per capita personal income? Of all places, it is Ireland. What do they credit it to? Making college free to all. It has resulted in their having the most educated workforce on the planet, a workforce perfect for the 21st century, and as a result tech companies have flocked there. They also credit government-run healthcare, which more and more is a competitive advantage for companies competing against US companies. As a result of all this, Ireland also has the lowest corporate taxes in the western world as well.

I am intimately familiar with the history of Japan's rise as an economic superpower, mainly because most of the programming I do has a great deal to do with Statistical Process Control, a theory of quality control that was indeed developed by Walter Shewhart and Edward Demming here in the US - but the Japanese did not "improve" on, US manufacturing firms rejected the theories of these two men because they thought quality was a function of the amount of money spent to achieve it, and not a function of how people approach the way they do things. Demming took the ideas to the Japanese, who adopted them, with great government support I might add, and the rest is the history of us getting slaughtered in the world market place.

We need to revitalize our manufacturing base with the tools we have available to us to compete. As I have said, my core argument is that many times there are things which ought to be invested in, which will not be invested in because business conditions preclude it from happening. Currently, manufactures in the US have a choice, relocate to a foreign country or hire illegals here in the US, both of which hurt US workers. Healthcare and high wages both play into this.

But the core problem is the labor intensiveness of current manufacturing processes. In order to compete in this environment - we need to revolutionize it. The utilization of robotics in this country is dismal. We have fantastically advanced computer languages for processing accounting information and doing stupid things like playing games and making pretty web pages, but language development for commanding devices to actually do something, as anyone who has programmed Lattice devices or played with a Basic Stamp can attest, is utterly primitive in comparison. We also have huge problems in our software patent laws, where some moron can patent the "idea" of doing something with software, while having no clue on how to actually do it, in the hopes that he can cash it in later for millions like a lottery ticket. I've been prevented from programming a number of labor saving device solutions because of this idiocy. We need some kind of organized national approach to moving manufacturing into the 21st century in revolutionary ways - otherwise we will completely lose our manufacturing base. As Demming once said, if the US does not act, it will "end up with an economy based on us cutting each other's hair".

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-30-2005, 02:06 PM
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RE: I have a difficult time understanding when a company makes $17 biilion in sales,

KV,
What tools would that be?
How can we compete with wages that are so low compared to ours?
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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-01-2005, 08:21 AM
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RE: I have a difficult time understanding when a company makes $17 biilion in sales,

I agree, Japan may not have come up with the improvements, but using just in time (JIT) sure kicked us in the pants. Especially since our auto industry was practicing planned obsolescence. I think free college education is desperately needed. If not free, then at least very affordable to all. I know that my children will need a masters degree to make the same salary I make. We are already saving for that. I completely agree with revitalization. With computers and robotics, it is very possible to make many different products with the same equipment. Many different applications.
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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-01-2005, 09:56 AM
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RE: I have a difficult time understanding when a company makes $17 biilion in sales,

Quote:
MS Fowler - 6/30/2005 4:06 PM

KV,
What tools would that be?
How can we compete with wages that are so low compared to ours?
Robots. Add to that, free college education to all. Instead, we are building an increasingly ignorant society and producing low tech jobs for them. From a macro economic viewpoint, the US is currently liquadating the wealth it built up over the 20th Century to finance the economy. This is due to the fact we no longer really produce anything, so we have to sell what we have, or borrow money against it. We are in a death spiral economically, its just a nice, slow one, so no one notices.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-01-2005, 10:07 AM
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RE: I have a difficult time understanding when a company makes $17 biilion in sales,

Quote:
MS Fowler - 6/30/2005 6:30 AM

KV,
You ask if helping money to flow to fascist dictatotships is what we should do. By the context, I assume you mean to China.
I thought it was your contention that WE are the fascist state that threatens global peace?! Could it be that there are worse fascists in the world than W?
I'm shocked!
I still maintain that the only way to redirect money from going to lowest cost/wages areas of production is, in reality, a tax, in the form of higher prices, and lowered standard of living for the US. I suppose you feel that would be proper US policy; maybe, in the larger picture it is. But with the inflamed rhetoric around here, it is difficult to see the core issues. Too much of your efforts seem directed at simply regaing power for the dems. Keep the argument on this economic tract and lets see where it goes.
I think longterm China is going to be the biggest Socialist power on the planet, and will become increasingly less fascistic. We will be doing the exact opposite. This is seen repeated throughout history in the decline stage of global empires. If China can democratize their political system, there will be no stopping these people if we continue down our low tech path.

The new model for economic success in an increasingly overpopulated and under-resourced world is one of teamwork between business and government, where government acts as facilator and referee. The Asians under this, and the Europeans have caught on too. There are just some jobs that governments simply do better, like providing universal retirement insurance that guarantees a minimum standard of living to the elderly, widows and orphans, or like universal healthcare. The current US fixation on making government the enemy and unregulated capitalism the way of life is economic suicide. We are still wrapped up in Cold War progaganda and ideology, and have this prejudice that systems like this are some how "communist" or "socialism", when in fact they lend enormous competitive advantage to the private sectors if they are universalized. The rest of the world is beating our brains out because they have figured it out. As you watch the collapse of General Motors, keep this in mind.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-01-2005, 10:17 AM
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RE: I have a difficult time understanding when a company makes $17 biilion in sales,

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Robschaef - 7/1/2005 10:21 AM

I agree, Japan may not have come up with the improvements, but using just in time (JIT) sure kicked us in the pants. Especially since our auto industry was practicing planned obsolescence. I think free college education is desperately needed. If not free, then at least very affordable to all. I know that my children will need a masters degree to make the same salary I make. We are already saving for that. I completely agree with revitalization. With computers and robotics, it is very possible to make many different products with the same equipment. Many different applications.
My God! You're a.. a.. DEMOCRAT! OMG! Trapped in a Republican's body! Someone help this man! I'm sending our two top men!



Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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