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post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 06-23-2005, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
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Top American general contradicts Bush and Cheney: Insurgency growing

President Crack Head and Vice President L.S. Dee seem to have those who disagree with them:


Top general: Insurgency growing

Iraq insurgents still strong, general says

Senate comments contrary to Cheney's view of 'last throes'
The Associated Press

Updated: 11:58 a.m. ET June 23, 2005WASHINGTON - The top American military commander in the Persian Gulf disputed a contention by Vice President Dick Cheney that the Iraqi insurgency was in its “last throes� and told Congress on Thursday that its strength was basically undiminished from six months ago.

Furthermore, Gen. John Abizaid told the Senate Armed Services Committee, “I believe there are more foreign fighters coming into Iraq than there were six months ago.�

In a CNN interview last month, Cheney said that “the level of activity that we see today from a military standpoint, I think, will clearly decline. I think they’re in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency.�

Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan, the committee’s senior Democrat, asked Abizaid if he realized he was contradicting Cheney.

“I don’t know that I would make any comment about that other than to say there’s a lot of work to be done,� said Abizaid. “I gave you my opinion.�

Rumsfeld adds to Cheney comment
His testimony came as the nation’s top defense leaders rejected calls by some lawmakers for the Bush administration to set a timetable for U.S. withdrawal from wartorn Iraq. “That would be a mistake,� Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told the committee.

Rumsfeld also sought to explain what Cheney meant.

Between now and when an Iraqi constitution is drafted and voted on later this year, “They may very well be in their last throes by their own view cause they recognize how important it will be if the lose,� he said.

Of Cheney’s words specifically, Rumsfeld added: “While I didn’t use them and I might not use them, I think it’s understandable that we can expect that kind of a response from the enemy.�

Rumsfeld engaged in contentious exchanges with committee Democrats.

“Isn’t it time for you to resign?� Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., asked the defense secretary, citing what he called “gross errors and mistakes� in the U.S. military campaign in Iraq.

“I’ve offered my resignation to the president twice,� Rumsfeld shot back, saying that President Bush had decided not to accept it. “That’s his call,� he said.

Unpredictable war
Rumsfeld told the committee that "timing in war is never predictable. There are never guarantees.

“Those who say we are losing this war are wrong," he added. "We are not.�

Congressional Democrats are demanding answers about the future presence of U.S. troops in Iraq.

Rumsfeld, testifying on the progress in training Iraq’s own security forces, said these forces have “a way to go,� but progress was being made.

“Success will not be easy and it will require patience. ... But consider what has been accomplished in 12 months,� Rumsfeld said, citing elections in January, economic improvements, and an increasingly improving security force.

Click for related story
Carnage in Baghdad




The Bush administration contends that Iraqis must be able to defend their own country against a lethal insurgency before a timeline for bringing home troops can be considered.

But progress has been slower than expected. In recent weeks, insurgents have increasingly targeted Iraqi security forces. And U.S. casualties, war spending and public skepticism continue to climb, ruffling both Republicans and Democrats.

“Leaving before the task is complete would be catastrophic,� Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the panel.

Call for constitution
Levin said there was “no military settlement without a political settlement.�

He called for Iraqis to not keep putting off a vote on the drafting of a constitution. “Failure to adopt a constitution ... shows a lack of will,� he said.

“We must demonstrate to the Iraqis that our willingness to bear the burden ... has limits,� Levin said. At the same time, he said he did not support at this time a U.S.-set timetable for a U.S. exit strategy. “That policy would be counterproductive,� Levin acknowledged.

Committee Chairman John Warner, R-Va., praised President Bush for “steady and unflinching resolve.�

“Our great nation has an enormous capacity for sacrifice and hardship when we understand the cause is just,� he said.


Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 06-23-2005, 11:36 AM
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RE: Top American general contradicts Bush and Cheney: Insurgency growing

Quote:
“Isn’t it time for you to resign?� Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., asked the defense secretary, citing what he called “gross errors and mistakes� in the U.S. military campaign in Iraq.

“I’ve offered my resignation to the president twice,� Rumsfeld shot back, saying that President Bush had decided not to accept it. “That’s his call,� he said.
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post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 06-23-2005, 12:06 PM
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RE: Top American general contradicts Bush and Cheney: Insurgency growing

The US does not seem to learn from history. I had looked into the Algerian war as an example to make a point for Azimuth. Now I really see so much parallelism.
The Iraqi insurgency (some are down right murderers) operates by using loosely nit cells; there is no way it can be dismantled as it is a serpent with many heads.
The US is in denial and will stay that way even after their “eventual� withdraw. It’s just a matter of time. It took years for some French to realize that they did not own Algeria as much as it took years for the US to figure out what the hell happened in Vietnam.
The current Iraqi administration will suffer the fate of the Liberian administration as turmoil will perpetuate for years to come in that country. Those are my opinions, I may be wrong, but hey I go by what humans have proven over and over on how this cycle works.
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post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 06-23-2005, 12:24 PM
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RE: Top American general contradicts Bush and Cheney: Insurgency growing

Quote:
Shabah - 6/23/2005 1:06 PM
It took years for some French to realize that they did not own Algeria as much as it took years for the US to figure out what the hell happened in Vietnam.
The current Iraqi administration will suffer the fate of the Liberian administration as turmoil will perpetuate for years to come in that country.
A major difference resides in the fact that French presence in and "ownership" of Algeria was the direct result of French colonialism, when it was the norm for western europeans to do so. The parallels really exist between Brittain (e.g. India), Belgium (Congo), Portugal and France. These countries "defended" their "ownership" / interests, while the US had no such "claims" in Vietnam (the French did, and failed there too), a clear contrast between the parallel you drew. Should the US expect, as have experienced these European countries (think sizeable Indian population in England, or Algerians, Morocans, and Tunisians populations in France and Belgium, etc...), massive migratory movements from Iraq?

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post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 06-23-2005, 01:29 PM
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RE: Top American general contradicts Bush and Cheney: Insurgency growing

Wow. Rumsfeld said that? Too many idealists spoil the stew.
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post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 06-23-2005, 07:40 PM
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RE: Top American general contradicts Bush and Cheney: Insurgency growing

That General will be retired soon. Too bad. Jim
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post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 06-24-2005, 09:52 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Top American general contradicts Bush and Cheney: Insurgency growing


It depends on what the meaning of "throes" is

salon.com


Five U.S. Marines were killed when a suicide bomber blew up his vehicle next to their convoy in Fallujah Friday, and the general in charge of the U.S. Central Command is telling Congress that, contrary to the recent remarks by Dick Cheney, the insurgency in Iraq is alive and well and swelling with fighters from foreign lands.

So is the vice president ready to re-assess his rosy view about Iraq? Well, no. On May 31, Cheney told Larry King: "The level of activity that we see today from a military standpoint, I think, will clearly decline. I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." Since he spoke, at least 66 U.S. soldiers and God knows how many Iraqis have been killed, and military officials and senators from both parties have said that there's a "disconnect" between the optimism in the White House and the reality on the ground in Iraq.

So what does Dick Cheney have to say for himself now? Cheney was back on CNN yesterday, and if we were to read the interview to you and not tell you that it was the vice president speaking, you would most certainly believe that it was, oh, the sort of thing that Republicans used to call "Clintonian." See, it depends on what the meaning of the word "throes" is. "If you look at what the dictionary says about 'throes,' it can still be a violent period, the throes of a revolution," Cheney explained. "The point" of his earlier comments had been that "the conflict will be intense, but it's intense because the terrorists understand that if we're successful at accomplishing our objective -- standing up a democracy in Iraq -- that that's a huge defeat for them."

The vice president is pretty handy with his dictionary, but there's one small problem with his lexicographical analysis. He didn't say last month that Iraq is "in the throes" of the insurgency; he said that Iraq is "in the last throes" of the insurgency. And our dictionary defines "last" as meaning "coming after all others in time or order, final; met with or encountered after any others; the lowest in importance or rank."

So which definition did Cheney have in mind? He didn't say, but perhaps we can help. Since Cheney now says that there will still be a "lot of bloodshed" in Iraq, he must not have meant "last" in the way most of us would have understood it, as a synonym for the word "final." Instead, maybe what he had in mind was the other dictionary definition -- "the lowest in importance or rank." After all didn't George W. Bush tell us -- more than two years and 1,588 dead U.S. troops ago -- that "major" combat operations were over?

-- Tim Grieve

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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