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post #61 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 11:57 AM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

There have been a couple of highly contentious studies done in the USA on that issue (correlation of guns to crime) that indicated there was some threshold in both directions in the USA. IOW, too many guns leads to more deaths from intentional and accidental shootings and too few guns empowers teh criminal element to act with relative impugnity.

I don't think this is an issue that would hold up across cultures. For example, Japan has a very different culture from the USA and so, norms there are wildly different. Applying norms from here over there and vice versa would probably be very distressing in either direction.

In all probability, it varies across cultures and time within the USA. For example, I grew up in a rural community. Many of the boys in my age group brought guns to school (left unloaded in cars and pickups) so we could go hunting after school. In that same community today they'd probably call out a SWAT team if the rumor arose that a kid had a shotgun in his pickup.

Regardless of all that, IMO the most important amendment in the US Constitution is the 2nd. Because a disarmed citizen cannot protect his rights in the face of tyranny, no matter how fine and fancy the words and sentiments of the Constitution maybe.
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post #62 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 12:28 PM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The usual gun-nut argument deletes the first half of that article, or claims it moot altogether. Billy-Bob riding in the back of an F-250 looking for evil-doers does not a well regulated militia make. Nor is the freedom of the state at jeopardy.
The constitution was written at a time of innocence and ignorance, and certainly without a clue as to societies potential evolution.


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post #63 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
ThrillKill - 6/26/2005 11:49 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 6/26/2005 10:38 AM

I wonder if some minimum level of basic constitutional comprehesion wouldn't be wise to require. It would also be helpful if one would educate him/herself as to the constitutioal infractions of the politicians for whom he/she is considering.

that will never happen on a wide scale as we are fat and happy with our mouths stuffed with cake from another individuals labors.

Time for a revolution. Where's my fully automatic assault pitch fork? Or shall we wait 'til those are declared illegal to own?
Can you give me a truly valid reason for owning a gun? Besides keeping large, black or Hispanic people from robbing your house of course.
Why Thrillkill, how very libertarian of you to ask. Can you think of one good reason I shouldn't?



edit: after I typed and posted the above Q, I read Bot's similar Q.....oops.

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post #64 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 01:11 PM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

Quote:
ThrillKill - 6/26/2005 2:28 PM

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The usual gun-nut argument deletes the first half of that article, or claims it moot altogether. Billy-Bob riding in the back of an F-250 looking for evil-doers does not a well regulated militia make. Nor is the freedom of the state at jeopardy.
The constitution was written at a time of innocence and ignorance, and certainly without a clue as to societies potential evolution.
And gunophobes typically omit the second half of the above declaration. "The right of the people" is not the right of only some people. Understandably, the power and potential for disaster requires that a record of comportment for the individual be obliged to enjoy any freedom. Infringement is regularly practiced by the politicians through various means. Some of those being restrictions on accesories capacities and even availablity. They have created atmospheres where the value or rather cost of weapons can be prohibitive. Ofcourse the arguement goes that the people cannot be trusted with such freedoms. Well, when was the last time government restricted it's power when it acted irresponsibly? When Janet Reno mishandled the Waco, Texas/ branch dividian incident, and numerous people died, I didn't see congress passing laws limiting the capacities or availability of the weapons govt. uses on it's people. Interesting how you claim the state's freedom/security is not in jeopardy. the issue is not about the state as an entity. It is about those law abiding citizens who comprise the state

If you believe that the constittution is an antiquated document written by less sophisticated types than we are, why even have one at all ever?

I think they were well aware of the potential evolution of society given they had experienced and studied history. The rise and fall of
despotic dictators and oppressive regimes occurs in about the same pattern through history...it is usually the incremental usurption of power from the individual to the state. We see that happening today. Some of us claim that these people don't merit these rights, others claim that those folks aren't capable of controlling those rights. They actively seek to take away freedom from law abiding individuals based on some misuse/abuse of other individuals.

If you were traumatised by looking down the business end of a firearm wielded unwisely by a friend, fine don't be around guns. Don't buy them. Let me ask you this, when you are being assaulted or if someone is in your house to do your family harm, whom do you call? Most likely, your libertatian answer is the police.....people with guns.

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post #65 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 01:23 PM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

Quote:
ThrillKill - 6/26/2005 2:28 PM

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The usual gun-nut argument deletes the first half of that article, or claims it moot altogether. Billy-Bob riding in the back of an F-250 looking for evil-doers does not a well regulated militia make. Nor is the freedom of the state at jeopardy.
The constitution was written at a time of innocence and ignorance, and certainly without a clue as to societies potential evolution.
I have not kept-up with the 2nd Amendment argument, but I think that you'll find most academic law profs believe it is an individual right.

First, it is found in the Bill of Rights, a document written to expressly guarntee certain rights of individuals. It would be strange that one right would be given to a class (militias) and not to individuals.

Second, I believe it is accurate to say that the part about militias is guaranteeing the people the right to form militias, if well-regulated (mobs need not apply).

In any case, I know that the internet is full to the choking point of point/counterpoint ad nauseum about this. I'm sure we could all dredge-up our favorite list of experts to prove our various points.

For me, the important issue is one of personal liberty and empowerment.
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post #66 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 01:24 PM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

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azimuth - 6/26/2005 3:11 PM
And gunophobes typically omit the second half of the above declaration.
I just call "gunophobes" gun nuts. Goes along well with my theory that all extremes are really equal positions. Whether we all have guns or none of us do, we're on equal footing.

Quote:
azimuth - 6/26/2005 3:11 PM
If you were traumatised by looking down the business end of a firearm wielded unwisely by a friend, fine don't be around guns.
I know Texas has a law about bringing a handgun into a place that serves alcohol, are there laws against brandishing a firearm while under the influence of a mind-altering drug such as alcohol? I would be willing to support such laws.

Quote:
azimuth - 6/26/2005 3:11 PM
Most likely, your libertatian answer is the police.....people with guns.
I'm not sure where libertarians come into this, they actually oppose gun control and are proponents of personal responsibility and thin government.
http://www.issues2000.org/Celeb/Libe...un_Control.htm

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post #67 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 01:42 PM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

Quote:
jdbower - 6/26/2005 3:24 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 6/26/2005 3:11 PM
And gunophobes typically omit the second half of the above declaration.
I just call "gunophobes" gun nuts. Goes along well with my theory that all extremes are really equal positions. Whether we all have guns or none of us do, we're on equal footing.

Quote:
azimuth - 6/26/2005 3:11 PM
If you were traumatised by looking down the business end of a firearm wielded unwisely by a friend, fine don't be around guns.
I know Texas has a law about bringing a handgun into a place that serves alcohol, are there laws against brandishing a firearm while under the influence of a mind-altering drug such as alcohol? I would be willing to support such laws.

Quote:
azimuth - 6/26/2005 3:11 PM
Most likely, your libertatian answer is the police.....people with guns.
I'm not sure where libertarians come into this, they actually oppose gun control and are proponents of personal responsibility and thin government.
http://www.issues2000.org/Celeb/Libe...un_Control.htm
As I stated, individual freedom dependes upon individual responsibility to exist. The wise and liberal (hehe, he said liberal) use of personal responsibility would eclipse any inclination to involve guns with alcohol or any other state altering substance.

I only use the libertarian reference to place in stark relief his apparent position on the second amendment vs. the libertarian position...a political philosophy he claims to embrace.

I can say this, I own a few firearms (more than Mrs. Azimuth would prefer) some are very costly and exrtemely nice, others are of sentimental value only. A firearm is only as dangerous as the individual in whose possession it rests. Individual who mean to do harm will find a way to do so regardless of the availability of firearms. I read a news article out of Britain where some physicians had gathered to lobby whomever people lobby over there to have -get this- knives of a certain size out lawed because of the increase of injuries and deaths due to knife attacks on the streets of thier otherwise fine gun free communities.

In the end, it is not about the device. It is a bout personal responsibility and the freedon it generally provides.

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post #68 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 01:47 PM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

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azimuth - 6/26/2005 3:42 PM
As I stated, individual freedom dependes upon individual responsibility to exist. The wise and liberal (hehe, he said liberal) use of personal responsibility would eclipse any inclination to involve guns with alcohol or any other state altering substance.
Exactly. I have no issue with laws preventing people from doing things that injure other people, but I should have the ability to exercise my own judgement not to do certain things after drinking. Otherwise we may as well outlaw cars to prevent drunk driving accidents.

Quote:
azimuth - 6/26/2005 3:42 PM
I only use the libertarian reference to place in stark relief his apparent position on the second amendment vs. the libertarian position...a political philosophy he claims to embrace.
Fine, make me look like a stupid American who doesn't understand sarcasm. [:I]

Thanks,

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post #69 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 01:52 PM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

Quote:
jdbower - 6/26/2005 3:47 PM

Quote:
azimuth - 6/26/2005 3:42 PM
As I stated, individual freedom dependes upon individual responsibility to exist. The wise and liberal (hehe, he said liberal) use of personal responsibility would eclipse any inclination to involve guns with alcohol or any other state altering substance.
Exactly. I have no issue with laws preventing people from doing things that injure other people, but I should have the ability to exercise my own judgement not to do certain things after drinking. Otherwise we may as well outlaw cars to prevent drunk driving accidents.

Quote:
azimuth - 6/26/2005 3:42 PM
I only use the libertarian reference to place in stark relief his apparent position on the second amendment vs. the libertarian position...a political philosophy he claims to embrace.
Fine, make me look like a stupid American who doesn't understand sarcasm. [:I]
you're an American?[:D]

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post #70 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 01:54 PM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

Well first of all I've got a Redbone Coonhound that doesn't cotton to strangers in the house. I don't buy them, although every time my brother-in-law goes on vacation, my house looks like a military arsenal as I've been designated the temporary curator of his collection. The draftsmen of the Constitution were wiserer and more smarterer than I could ever conceive, they may have even realized the sheer magnitude of crime as it is today. I just don't believe they foresaw overcrowded cities of armed individuals with individual thought processes and judgment. Chris Rock has the funniest take on gun control.
*******STRONG LANGUAGE**********
http://www.audiocomedy.net/standup/rock/guncontrol.shtml

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