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post #11 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-20-2005, 07:52 PM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

Hold on to your hat, Jim, I gonna semi-agree with you.

There is no genetic difference between a Nazi and anybody else, including a liberal or a conservative. Nazism is a thought-away from each human being on the planet. All you have to do is fully embrace Nietsche and Bismark and you're on your way to a thousand-year reich.

The difficulty is not in the capacity for Nazism, it is in the propensity for Nazism. At this time, I do not see a propensity for Nazism in the USA. The difficulty with defending opposite assertion, that the USA is headed to some sort of Nazism, is that the correlations that are used by people who believe that to be true are not anything more than just that, correlations.

For example, if the rightwingers were clever (and they are not) they would spend a few moments thinking about the leftwingers' correlations with Nazism and begin whining about those. And there are a few, mostly on the social engineering side. Give it some honest consideration and you'll see what I mean.

Does that mean that I think the leftwingers are proto-Nazis? Heck no. But they have the genetic makeup, as do all human beings, for that political belief.

I find myself in (rather rare) agreement with the ADL on this one.

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post #12 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-20-2005, 07:53 PM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

Nazi rise to power 101: Hyperinflation. We don't have it here.
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post #13 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-20-2005, 07:55 PM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

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Robschaef - 6/20/2005 9:53 PM

Nazi rise to power 101: Hyperinflation. We don't have it here.
That was the catalyst, not the cause.
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post #14 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-20-2005, 08:11 PM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

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kvining - 6/20/2005 9:45 PM

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Botnst - 6/20/2005 8:31 PM

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kvining - 6/20/2005 1:25 PM

Today's drudge, in his latest smear campaign against the Clintons:



Actual picture:



And they wonder why people call them Nazis
It could be a faked photo, but the one you show is definitely not the source of the 'fake'. The perspectives on the people are all different. It looks like one of a sequence. If it is a good fake, you'd have to have the originals fromw hich it was derived to prove it. This is not even good evidence.

......
First, look at the women's pinky, cocked at an angle, and pointing directly at an age line on Clinton's neck. Now look at the embrace, the hand is exactly the same. Now go find your old lady, hold her at arms length, pull her in for the smooche, and you will notice your forearm will rotate counter clockwise as you do so, and holding your pinky in the exact same place, is impossible. That is point number one.

Point number two, is that in Photoshop, I can manipulate the background any way I wish, as anyone who has seen the Bush photos with the 1,000 repeating soldiers can attest.

Point three, for the hat trick and blogosphere winner of the Dan Rather Award of the day, is a technical point. When you manipulate a photo in photo shop, it inserts the word "ducky" into the binary code, unseen:

http://www.networkworld.com/columnists/2004/062804gearhead.html


I do photoanalysis for a living. You cannot definitively determine whether a photo has been manipulated unless you have the original(s). Anything, including headers (so easily edited by anybody with image analysis software and a will to deceive), can be edited. But if you have the original files you can usually determine authenticity. But NOT necessarily. A person who is extremely clever and knowledgeable could probably create an undetectable fake image. But to do that you would have to have two things: A will to defraud and the ability to do it.

The two photos that you provided do not constitute a proof of anything.

In my shop we try to fake each other out occasionally just for fun. It can be done, especially if you have an image that is improbable to start with. For example, I had a photo taken from an airplane of about 4,400 acres near Jennings, LA. In it there was an area bushhogged with the message, "I love you" in a 20 acre tract. I didn't touch the photo and just presented it as a test for the smart boys and girls to figure-out. Most of them said it was "real" but one insisted it was fake. He even had rational, logical reasons to stick with his argument. It wasn't until he saw the original photo that he acknowledged it was real.

The unanswered question is, why in the heck would somebody bushhog, "I love you" in script so large that it could only be seen in its entirity at a couple thousand feet altitude.

I am not saying that the photo is fake or not. I really, truly can't seem to find a reason to give a damn. I'm just saying there is incomplete evidence.

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post #15 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-20-2005, 09:23 PM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

"That was the catalyst, not the cause."

More like the environment that became rich for the Nazi movement. You also have to consider the anger of being beaten have having all signs if industrialization destroyed. In turn causing the hyperinflation. To consider from a holistic view, even if one party or both parties are using tactics used by the Nazi's. It does not lead to the same conclusion that the brown shirts are going to show up at your door. Had there been a stable economy and industrial base. I do not believe the methods used for the rise to power would have worked. Hitler first won people over by industrializing a nation that was not working and spending a life savings for the most basic food. Once the prosperity returned; he was the savior and his words began to become gospel. Even if you did not agree with what he was saying, he had brought the food back to the table.
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post #16 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-20-2005, 09:36 PM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

Bot, this a day to mark on your calendar. I mostly agree with you on the photo. I mean, why should anyone care? Like you I would find this pretty easy to dismiss, and if there is any manipulation of the photo, I would point to the "open mouthed-ness" of the kiss. It looks like a sequence to me, where Clinton gave a woman a peck on the cheek, in public. The degradation of the photo quality, the apparent movement of the subjects behind Clinton and the woman, and the pursed lips of the first shot make the "open mouthed-ness" seem a bit of Photoshop'ing.

But, the need to demonize Clinton to rally the Stormtroopers, well, if it makes some feel better to just chalk it up as another corelation I guess they will. The chalkings are getting quite prolific. Whatever they are being chalked up on will need to be enlarged.

The question of why we would be sliding into Nazism is unique to the persons running the country and why they would steer that way. Having to make the case of why we would be slipping into Nazism solidly before you can consider the correlations more than that is indeed a peculiar standard. If one is inclined, as the resident of the White House and ruler of the political party in control of the House and Senate, with an opportunity coming to gain full control of the Supreme Court, to abuse your power I think it is a great cover to require that the reason you want to abuse your power must be established before the abuses can be considered more than anectodal correlations. Or, I guess we could just say until the President announces his intentions to replace our form of Government with a much more efficient and effective arrangement based on Hitler's Nazi regime, we should just presume nothing untoward is about to happen.
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post #17 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-20-2005, 10:53 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

I think it has already happened. As Molly Ivins so eloquently put it, democracy in America has been replaced by The Transactional State. It is a new form of fascism, but fascism none the less. We no longer have elected government, we have a group of men selcted by those who have all the money. This system of legalized bribery called "campaign finance" has created the perfect Corporate State. It has now melded with The Party, the ideological organization of these same Corporatists. They stay in power thanks to The Ministry of Propaganda, whose job it is to destroy anyone who threatens them. It has become their most valued arm, becaue in this new kind of fascism, you can no longer simply have your opponents murdered - they must be assasinated by the press. In this kind of fascism, The Ministry of Propaganda cannot be so obvious as to be an actual arm of government, it must be part of the Corporate structure of the government - the perfect realization of Mussolini's vision for the Fascist State, government and corporation, arm in arm, as one. THe deck has been reshuffled, but it's the set of cards. Its aim is to create a two class society. Middle classes are so annoying, what with their clamor for real democracy and all. People in this country better wake up. While communism has been the ideology of choice for the very poor, fascism has always been the same to the very rich. They and there jackboots are pulling it off. Fifteen years ago, if Tom Delay had put his wife and daughter on his "campaign" payroll for a $500,000 a year "job", he would have went to prison. Now, its barely a campaign issue in his district. Drudge, Coulter, the whole damn bunch, all make it possible by essentially lying and getting away with it, and the corporate press raises nary a peep. Do you think anyone on CNN is going to point out Drudge is pushing a fake picture of Clinton, while he makes a smear book he is actively invovled into promoting "news"? Where are the watchdogs of democracy? Where is the free press? What the hell has happened to this country?



Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #18 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-20-2005, 11:05 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

Quote:
Robschaef - 6/20/2005 9:53 PM

Nazi rise to power 101: Hyperinflation. We don't have it here.
Actually, the decrees that established the Nazi state were the result of the Reichstag Fire. The hyperinflation just got Hitler elected. Don;t beleive me, google it up. You will find that the Reichstag Fire and 9-11 had the same type of effect on both of us.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #19 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-21-2005, 03:58 AM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

Jim,
I do not believe I made any mention of the people of preWW2 Germany being predisposed to becoming national socialists, and that we are not.
The chief reason I believe so strongly in a limited government is that all governments have a tendency to grow and acrue power. Its not just the liberals who want big government; its the neo cons, too. Mankind is basically unchanged over millenia. ( In theological terms, its called a "sin nauture"--we are predisposed to do evil, ALL of us--just thought I'd throw that in as I am agreeing with you).
I oppose any growing of governmental powers---but in our system, someone gets elected- and is empowered to run the government. Like most people, I try to choose the "lesser of two evils". In the recent past that choice was clearly Bush and his party as the liberals were showing signs of wanting to make even greater grabs of power.
Perhaps a divided governemt is the best way available to us to reduce this growth of power and loss of rights. I am not a fan of what the repubs have done since theu have been in charge.
Remember the Constitution limits government; to ignore the Constitution allows government to grow. We need to return to a strict interpretation of that document!
Nazism is not the only evil manner in which government can grow; there are a nearly infinite number of evil paths. Calling the repubs "Nazis" blinds you to all those other possibilites. While you are fighting the proto-Nazis over here on the right, another loss of rights is happening behind you. Socialism and Communism are also forms of greater government resulting is a loss of rights for the individual.

A little revolution might not be a bad thing evry generation or two.
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post #20 of 72 (permalink) Old 06-21-2005, 07:35 AM
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RE: Drudge pushes photo shopped picture on his web site as real

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MS Fowler - 6/20/2005 2:58 AM

Like most people, I try to choose the "lesser of two evils". In the recent past that choice was clearly Bush and his party as the liberals were showing signs of wanting to make even greater grabs of power.
Interesting that you see an architect of mass murder as the lesser of two evils. You see, this is where we differ -- I think mass murder is a bad thing...

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