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post #51 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 08:25 PM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Quote:
GermanStar - 6/11/2005 4:43 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 6/11/2005 8:45 AM

Quote:
GermanStar - 6/9/2005 11:20 PM

Yeah, I pointed that out over at MS, but Bot wasn't havin' any...
Huh?
"any poll generated under duress" -- the concept should seem quite familiar, if not the words...
I didn't see that in the Gerry Can stuff. I couldn't add anything useful to a gerry can thread so never entered it. Like the iPod thread. I got nothing to add to that so I haven't read it. Got any secret codes hidden in there?

Anyway, what poll under duress are you speaking of?

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post #52 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 08:29 PM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Quote:
GermanStar - 6/11/2005 7:39 PM

Quote:
kvining - 6/11/2005 2:15 PM

Perhaps the last poll taken by Saddam, which gave him 99% of the vote, can give us an indication of poll accuracy in Iraq. We are nothing more than Saddam's replacement.
Yup. Here are my posts verbatim.....


How seriously can you take these results? Iraqi people have been giving the "right answers" for a long time now. Once we're gone for good (oh yeah, never going to happen, right?), then let's see what the polls say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
You've got to do better than that. If you want to challenge teh results, bring forward a poll that contradicts this one then we can discuss them rationally. Rejecting as biased without competing data is just denial because it doesn't fit your paradigm. That is called 'faith'.
I don't reject it -- I question it. It may paint a fairly accurate picture, then again it may not. The fact is that they polled people who lived under a fascist regime for a long, long time, now live under rule of a foreign occupation. This doesn't exactly promote an atmosphere of free, unencumbered opinions.

I believe (and I certainly could be wrong) that a polled 1947 Germany may have provided markedly different results concerning opinions of Jews than a poll conducted in 1942. What do you think?
I completely agree that the polls might be different if taken of different people under different circumstances. That is why people take more than one poll.

Now that Saddam is no longer in the picture there are news people of various persuasions all over that place ferreting about looking for something to write a headline grabber. There are occasional polls taken. If you wish, you could even Google-up your own list of polls taken in Iraq and decide for yourself whether there is consistency among them or not. Or you could gainsay all of them simply because they don't agree with your perception. It is completely your choice.

Here's an op/ed based on polling that maybe of interest.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=15 179
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post #53 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 08:54 PM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

...just about as relevant as a poll of inmates at a prison regarding their attitudes toward incarceration, or slaves toward their masters--pointless. They neither prove nor disprove any standing hypotheses...except, possibly the one that disregards any polls conducted under duress.
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post #54 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 08:56 PM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Quote:
Botnst - 6/11/2005 7:25 PM

Anyway, what poll under duress are you speaking of?
It is not the poll that is under duress -- it is the people being polled, since a foreign army is subjecting them to living under the rule of military occupation. If I had to show obedience and respect to foreign invaders, I would consider that as living under duress. Perhaps you would find such conditions more to your liking...

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post #55 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 09:12 PM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Quote:
GermanStar - 6/11/2005 10:56 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 6/11/2005 7:25 PM

Anyway, what poll under duress are you speaking of?
It is not the poll that is under duress -- it is the people being polled, since a foreign army is subjecting them to living under the rule of military occupation. If I had to show obedience and respect to foreign invaders, I would consider that as living under duress. Perhaps you would find such conditions more to your liking...
Well, you might want to look into that because according to the guy who published teh NSF thing they were pretty careful. But I guess the NSF is biased, too. In fact, probably anything that doesn't agree with your percpetion and beliefs of what should be going on is probably part of Bonehead's conspiracy.

Jaysuz, you boys are mind-numbed. If we took the name tags off the posts and re-arranged the nouns a bit it would be impossible to tell Tikket, from Bone, from Germie, from KVining, etc. Stay in your boxes where it is safe.

Bot
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post #56 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 09:43 PM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Perhaps you would accept microbial colony count data from non-sterile agar-filled petri dishes. I would discount the results, sterilize the dishes and medium, and repeat the process. I can't help it -- I've been mind-numbed in that way...

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #57 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 09:52 PM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Here's the link to the poll. It actually adds a lot of other useful information including negative information that you'd expect in a more well-rounded poll (only a 25% confidence in the US forces, for example). Interesting to see that the UN is not a preferred solution for them.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world...ll_040314.html

Thanks,

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post #58 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-16-2005, 11:38 AM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Six more GIs die in Bush's Nazi-style Occupation of Iraq. This is becoming an orgy of violence:


Six U.S. military, eight Iraqi police killed
U.S. reports capture of Mosul-based al-Qaida leader in Iraq


The Associated Press

Updated: 11:17 a.m. ET June 16, 2005BAGHDAD, Iraq - Insurgents killed six U.S. soldiers and eight Iraqi police in separate attacks, while the U.S. military announced Thursday that a senior al-Qaida in Iraq leader had been captured.

Five Marines died Wednesday after their vehicle was attacked near Ramadi, 70 miles west of Baghdad, the military said Thursday. And a sailor attached to the Marines’ unit, the 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force, was also killed Wednesday by gunfire in the same Sunni town, the military said.

The six U.S. deaths raised Wednesday’s toll from insurgent attacks to 58 killed, making it the deadliest day of violence in more than a month.

At least 1,714 U.S. military members have died since the war began in 2003, according to an AP count.

In Baghdad on Thursday, a suicide car bomber slammed into a truck that was carrying policemen along the main road to the airport, killing at least eight officers and injuring at least 25, police and hospital officials said.

The suicide bomber plowed his black sedan at high speed into a truck carrying police officers from checkpoint to checkpoint along the road about 4 p.m.

The officers were part of an evening shift that was replacing other officers at the checkpoints.

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Al-Qaida suspect held
The attacks came as the military announced that the arrest of a man said to direct the Mosul operations of al-Qaida in Iraq, the extremist group led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

Mohammed Khalaf, also known as Abu Talha, was arrested last Tuesday, said U.S. Air Force Brig. Gen. Don Alston.

"Talha was one of al-Zarqawi's most trusted operation agents in Iraq. This is a major defeat for al-Qaida terrorist organization in Iraq. Al-Zarqawi's leader in Mosul is out of business," Alston said.

Alston, spokesman for the Multinational Force in Iraq, earlier blamed al-Zarqawi for the fact that nearly 1,100 people have been killed since April 28, when the Shiite-led Iraqi government took office.

"With Zarqawi's push recently, we certainly see the fantastic rise in the number of civilians killed, given that he has proclaimed that taking out civilians is an acceptable thing," he said.

Last month, an audiotape said to be from al-Zarqawi denounced the country's Shiites as collaborators with the Americans and justified the deaths of fellow Muslims.

Constitution agreement
On the political front, senior members of a Shiite-dominated committee drafting Iraq’s new constitution reached a compromise Thursday with Sunni Arab groups on the number of representatives the minority will have on the body drafting the charter.

The agreement broke weeks of deadlock between the 55-member committee and Sunni Arabs over the size of their representation.

The stalemate had threatened to derail Iraq’s political process as it was about to enter its final stretch, with two key nationwide votes later this year — a constitutional referendum and a general election.

Under the deal, 15 Sunni Arabs would join two members of the minority already on the committee. Another 10 Sunni Arabs would join, but only in an advisory capacity.

News of the deal was announced by two lawmakers who sit on the committee — Shiite Bahaa al-Aaraji and Sunni Arab Adnan al-Janabi. Both have led contacts with the Sunni Arab community over the size of their participation in the constitutional process.

The agreement could help defuse growing sectarian tension between the majority Shiites, who control the government, and the Sunnis. The minority is thought to make up the core of an insurgency that has killed at least 1,080 people since Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari’s government was announced April 28.

The surge in attacks appeared aimed at derailing efforts by Shiite and Kurdish politicians to bring the disaffected Sunni Arab minority into the political process, particularly the drafting of the new constitution.

The new charter must be approved by parliament by mid-August and put to a nationwide vote two months later. If passed, it will be the basis for a new election in December.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #59 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-23-2005, 10:56 AM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

The Iraq Civil War continues:


Bombs jolt Baghdad awake
New casualties bring death toll in capital to 38 in 12 hours

The Associated Press


Updated: 7:36 a.m. ET June 23, 2005BAGHDAD, Iraq - Nearly 40 people died in a rash of car bombings in Iraq’s capital over a 12-hour span, including two coordinated blasts early Thursday that killed 15 and wounded 28 in a central Baghdad shopping district, police said.

Thursday’s carnage in the capital’s Karradah area came on the heels of bloodshed late Wednesday that included four car bombs exploding within minutes of one another. At least 23 people were killed in western Baghdad’s Shula neighborhood and a nearby suburb. Nineteen were killed in Shula alone.

The attacks served as a chilling reminder of how potent militants remain in the capital despite around-the-clock American and Iraqi troop patrols.

Most residents of Karradah and Shula are from Iraq’s Shiite majority, while the insurgents are almost exclusively Sunni Arabs, a minority that dominated Iraq until Saddam Hussein’s ouster two years ago.

Senior Saudi militant reportedly killed
In a separate development, one of Saudi Arabia's most wanted terror suspects was killed by an airstrike during fighting with U.S. and Iraqi forces in northwest Iraq, the leader of the al-Qaida in Iraq group said in a Web statement posted Thursday.

Abdullah al-Rashoud had been No. 24 out of a list of the top 26 most wanted terror leaders put out by Saudi Arabia three years ago and was one of only three militants on the list still at large. The Web posting, which could not be confirmed, said he slipped into Iraq in April.

Al-Rashoud was killed in fighting near the town of Qaim, on the border with Syria, said the statement, signed by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the most notorious terror leader in Iraq. U.S. forces have launched a series of offensives near Qaim in past weeks against militants slipping into Iraq.

Al-Zarqawi said he "congratulates the Islamic nation over the martyrdom" of Rashoud.

Large crowds at times of blasts
The explosions both days were carried out at times when large crowds were on the capital’s streets. Wednesday night’s bombs came hours before an 11 p.m. curfew, when many residents are out at eateries or chatting on the streets before locking themselves inside their homes.

Thursday’s twin explosions took place when many are just beginning their daily routines. The attacks in Karradah happened nearly simultaneously, police Lt. Col. Salman Abdul Karim and officer Ahmed Hatam al-Sharie said. Five police officers were among the 15 dead.

A young boy, his left leg missing from below the knee, sat on the sidewalk near a mangled bicycle, screaming as a man tried to comfort him. The force of the blasts blew off store shutters, and the surrounding sidewalks were covered with debris, including shattered glass, concrete slabs and charred vegetables and fruit.

A few trees were toppled, scattering leaves on the sidewalk.

Policeman killed
Separately, a car bomb detonated by remote control hit an Iraqi police patrol in Tuz Khormato, north of Baghdad, killing one policeman and wounding seven civilians, police Brig. Gen. Sarhad Qadr said. Tuz Khormato is 55 miles south of the northern city of Kirkuk.

In another incident before dawn Thursday, U.S. troops backed by Iraqi troops and helicopters killed seven insurgents who opened fire on the patrol from a home in western Baghdad’s Jamiaa neighborhood, said police Maj. Moussa Abdul Karim and 1st Lt. Mohammed al-Heyaali.

The home was reduced to rubble and U.S. troops standing in front displayed a weapons cache they had seized, including rocket-propelled grenade launchers, machine guns and ammunition.

In all, at least 32 people were killed Wednesday across Iraq, including a prominent Sunni law professor assassinated by gunmen. Jassim al-Issawi was a former judge who put his name forward at one point to join the committee drafting Iraq’s constitution. The assassination appeared aimed at intimidating Sunni Arabs willing to join Iraq’s efforts to create a stable political system.

Al-Issawi’s killing, potentially the most politically significant act of violence since Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari came to office nearly two months ago, marked the first direct attempt to scare moderates away from political participation.

It sent a powerful message to the Sunni Arab community to either boycott involvement in the fledgling government or risk death.

Relentless attacks
Insurgents bent on starting a civil war to overthrow Iraq’s U.S.-backed government have maintained nearly eight weeks of relentless attacks, killing more than 1,240 people since April 28, when al-Jaafari announced his Shiite-dominated government.

In Brussels, Belgium, an international conference adopted a declaration of support for the struggling nation, backing the Iraqi government’s “efforts to achieve a democratic, pluralist, federal and unified Iraq.�

But al-Issawi’s killing and the Baghdad bombings provided fresh evidence of the insurgents’ ability to strike with impunity in the heavily protected capital, where U.S. and Iraqi forces hunt insurgents patrol around the clock.

Deputy Prime Minister Ahmad Chalabi, a senior Shiite politician and a former Washington insider, condemned the assassination and renewed his government’s commitment to include Sunni Arabs in drafting the constitution.

Leaders of the Sunni Arab minority also condemned al-Issawi’s assassination, linking it to what they said was a plan to eliminate key minority figures ahead of the crucial task of writing the country’s basic law.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for al-Issawi’s assassination, but Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi’s al-Qaida in Iraq has threatened to kill Sunni Arabs cooperating with the government or the United States.

Sunni Arabs, who dominated Iraq for decades, lost power when Saddam, their last patron and a Sunni, was ousted. Their boycott of historic elections in January further sidelined them.

But Sunni Arab participation in the political process is essential for Iraq’s passage to democracy.

Parliament has until Aug. 15 to draft the new constitution, which will be put to a referendum two months later. If ratified, it will be the basis for a general election in December, giving Iraq its first, full-term elected government in decades.



Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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