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post #11 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 07:57 PM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Of course, in Botnst's world, US Policy can best be referred to as "Moral Posturing", where our superior Master Race gets a pass for mass murder, occupation and illegal war, while posturing itself as some kind of moral force in the world that has not "policy to harm civilians". While the rest of the world is sickened and nauseated by our actions, this policy allows them to continue to delude themselves so the can continue murdering people, while telling those of us at home that while it looks like murder, it is really a "war on terror".

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #12 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 08:02 PM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Quote:
kvining - 6/7/2005 9:57 PM

Of course, in Botnst's world, US Policy can best be referred to as "Moral Posturing", where our superior Master Race gets a pass for mass murder, occupation and illegal war, while posturing itself as some kind of moral force in the world that has not "policy to harm civilians". While the rest of the world is sickened and nauseated by our actions, this policy allows them to continue to delude themselves so the can continue murdering people, while telling those of us at home that while it looks like murder, it is really a "war on terror".
Thanks for the insight. Here's a BBC/ABC poll on what the Iraqis think of the war. I hope it parses properly.

U.S.-led invasion:
All Kurds Arabs
Was right 48% 40% 87%
Was wrong 39 46 9


Liberated Iraq 42% 33% 82%

Humiliated Iraq 41 48 11

Presence of coalition forces:
Support 39% 30% 82%

Oppose 51 60 12

Attacks on coalition forces:
Acceptable 17% 21% 2%
Â*
Unacceptable 78 74 96

How Iraqis See Their Lives Overall
How things are going today: All North South Central Baghdad
Good 70% 85% 65% 70% 67%
Bad 29 14 34 28 32

Compared to a year ago, before the war:
Better 56% 70% 63% 54% 46%
Same 23 15 21 22 31
Worse 19 13 13 23 23

How they'll be a year from now:
Better 71% 83% 74% 70% 63%
Same 9 4 6 10 16
Worse 7 1 4 9 10
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post #13 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 08:05 PM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Statistical validity in a war zone seems rather chancey. Tell me, how many poll takers got their heads chopped off? Where the poll takers armed with M-16s or just handguns?


Good Intentions Gone Bad
NEWSWEEK's Baghdad bureau chief, departing after two years of war and American occupation, has a few final thoughts.

Scott Nelson / WPN for Newsweek


By Rod Nordland
[/b]
NewsweekJune 13 issue - Two years ago I went to Iraq as an unabashed believer in toppling Saddam Hussein. I knew his regime well from previous visits; WMDs or no, ridding the world of Saddam would surely be for the best, and America's good intentions would carry the day. What went wrong? A lot, but the biggest turning point was the Abu Ghraib scandal. Since April 2004 the liberation of Iraq has become a desperate exercise in damage control. The abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib alienated a broad swath of the Iraqi public. On top of that, it didn't work. There is no evidence that all the mistreatment and humiliation saved a single American life or led to the capture of any major terrorist, despite claims by the military that the prison produced "actionable intelligence."

The most shocking thing about Abu Ghraib was not the behavior of U.S. troops, but the incompetence of their leaders. Against the conduct of the Lynndie Englands and the Charles Graners, I'll gladly set the honesty and courage of Specialist Joseph Darby, the young MP who reported the abuse. A few soldiers will always do bad things. That's why you need competent officers, who know what the men and women under their command are capable of—and make sure it doesn't happen.

Living and working in Iraq, it's hard not to succumb to despair. At last count America has pumped at least $7 billion into reconstruction projects, with little to show for it but the hostility of ordinary Iraqis, who still have an 18 percent unemployment rate. Most of the cash goes to U.S. contractors who spend much of it on personal security. Basic services like electricity, water and sewers still aren't up to prewar levels. Electricity is especially vital in a country where summer temperatures commonly reach 125 degrees Fahrenheit. Yet only 15 percent of Iraqis have reliable electrical service. In the capital, where it counts most, it's only 4 percent.

The most powerful army in human history can't even protect a two-mile stretch of road. The Airport Highway connects both the international airport and Baghdad's main American military base, Camp Victory, to the city center. At night U.S. troops secure the road for the use of dignitaries; they close it to traffic and shoot at any unauthorized vehicles. More troops and more helicopters could help make the whole country safer. Instead the Pentagon has been drawing down the number of helicopters. And America never deployed nearly enough soldiers. They couldn't stop the orgy of looting that followed Saddam's fall. Now their primary mission is self-defense at any cost—which only deepens Iraqis' resentment.

The four-square-mile Green Zone, the one place in Baghdad where foreigners are reasonably safe, could be a showcase of American values and abilities. Instead the American enclave is a trash-strewn wasteland of Mad Max-style fortifications. The traffic lights don't work because no one has bothered to fix them. The garbage rarely gets collected. Some of the worst ambassadors in U.S. history are the GIs at the Green Zone's checkpoints. They've repeatedly punched Iraqi ministers, accidentally shot at visiting dignitaries and behave (even on good days) with all the courtesy of nightclub bouncers—to Americans and Iraqis alike. Not that U.S. soldiers in Iraq have much to smile about. They're overworked, much ignored on the home front and widely despised in Iraq, with little to look forward to but the distant end of their tours—and in most cases, another tour soon to follow. Many are reservists who, when they get home, often face the wreckage of careers and family.

I can't say how it will end. Iraq now has an elected government, popular at least among Shiites and Kurds, who give it strong approval ratings. There's even some hope that the Sunni minority will join the constitutional process. Iraqi security forces continue to get better trained and equipped. But Iraqis have such a long way to go, and there are so many ways for things to get even worse. I'm not one of those who think America should pull out immediately. There's no real choice but to stay, probably for many years to come. The question isn't "When will America pull out?"; it's "How bad a mess can we afford to leave behind?" All I can say is this: last one out, please turn on the lights.



Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #14 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-08-2005, 12:21 AM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Do popular uprisists target for death and injury civilians and police?

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post #15 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-08-2005, 12:35 AM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Apparently ypou are not familiar with the term "collaborators".

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #16 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-08-2005, 12:42 AM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Quote:
kvining - 6/8/2005 2:35 AM

Apparently ypou are not familiar with the term "collaborators".
hey KV good morning. I suppose that would depend upon your perspective. My perspective rarely runs congruent with terrorist's perspective.

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post #17 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-08-2005, 07:34 AM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

iraqi's dont want the coalation , they dont want an islamic orthodox government, they want to remain one nations, there are no more insurgents..its just popular uprising.. enough.. iraqi's are not some aliens.. they want to live in peace and freedom just like we all want..
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post #18 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-08-2005, 08:08 AM
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Where, O where do your get your news?

Quote:
djugurba - 6/7/2005 2:14 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7897149/

The media and government are rather intent upon terming the violence in Iraq an insurgency that is waning. When 900 people are able to be arrested in a neighborhood of only several thousand, is this insurgency or popular revolt?

Does anyone, even those who are fully in favor of this war, believe that:
1. Iraqis, if given the honest chance, would choose to remain only one nation.
2. Iraqis, if given the honest chance, would choose to elect a non-islamic government.
3. Iraqis, if given the honest choice, would choose to have americans build multiple permanent military bases in their country.?
You would have us believe that we are currently engaged in a war effort in Iraq?
Non-sense! Why would we? Please check your facts!
Just more Bush bashing is what it is, friggin' libbies!

I feel so miserable without you; its almost like having you here.
-- Stephen Bishop
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post #19 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-08-2005, 08:35 AM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Quote:
azimuth - 6/8/2005 2:42 AM

Quote:
kvining - 6/8/2005 2:35 AM

Apparently ypou are not familiar with the term "collaborators".
hey KV good morning. I suppose that would depend upon your perspective. My perspective rarely runs congruent with terrorist's perspective.
How obtuse! Your perspective on the sitch doesn't matter even the slightest bit. You aren't in Iraq so who cares what your perspective is. What is important is the perspective of the terrorist, since they are the ones blowing people up. Since they are out to kill, it may, JUST MAY, behoove those involved in thwarting them to understand things from their perspective.

Are you saying you are incapable of seeing things from another's perspective? If that is the case I feel sorry for you.
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post #20 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-08-2005, 09:03 AM
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RE: insurgency or popular uprising

Quote:
That Guy - 6/8/2005 10:35 AM

Quote:
azimuth - 6/8/2005 2:42 AM

Quote:
kvining - 6/8/2005 2:35 AM

Apparently ypou are not familiar with the term "collaborators".
hey KV good morning. I suppose that would depend upon your perspective. My perspective rarely runs congruent with terrorist's perspective.
How obtuse! Your perspective on the sitch doesn't matter even the slightest bit. You aren't in Iraq so who cares what your perspective is. What is important is the perspective of the terrorist, since they are the ones blowing people up. Since they are out to kill, it may, JUST MAY, behoove those involved in thwarting them to understand things from their perspective.

Are you saying you are incapable of seeing things from another's perspective? If that is the case I feel sorry for you.
I will never understand an individual who unlawfully uses or threatens use of force or violence agaist civilians or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments for ideological or political reasons. I will never understand the criminal mind much less the international criminal.

If you'll take the time to read some of my prior posts, you'll see a sincere effort to understand the beliefs and perspectives of others. There is no need to feel sorry for me.....if you truly do.

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