Its a lot to ask, but, How about a little consistency? - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #21 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-10-2005, 07:59 PM
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RE: Its a lot to ask, but, How about a little consistency?

The problem is that this is the top of a slippery slope. If the question was irrelevant then he should have answered so - there is no excuse for lying. If the president is excused from the "petty crime" of perjury, where does the line get drawn? Covering up a burglary I would say is pretty close to on par. Getting drunk and driving some poor woman off a bridge is certainly much worse. Should we define certain crimes that are legal for each level of politician?

In another vein, Clinton was also implicated in several disappearances. Perhaps perjury was the only thing that had legitimate proof - akin to jailing Capone for tax evasion.

On the other hand, if the Prez forgets to pay for a pack of gum the cost to the country for putting him away for a month is far too great a price to pay. But the president shouldn't have an exclusive to this privilege. Should a non-habitual offense be excusable to people of a certain level? If I don't make a trip to a trade show next week I jeopardize tens (hundreds?) of millions of dollars of taxable revenue. Is it really worthwhile to lock me up for a petty crime?

Thanks,

Jeff
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post #22 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-10-2005, 09:00 PM
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RE: Its a lot to ask, but, How about a little consistency?

Quote:
Shane - 6/7/2005 3:44 PM

Blow job/lie vs. breaking and entering/lie. Hmmm. Which is worse? Personal vs. Criminal. Hmm. No contest.

Next...
Not sure about DC, but adultery is a crime in over 20 states:
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/grossman/20031216.html

Burglary doesn't really apply since it generally refers to breaking into a primary residence instead of a hotel room, but the crime is similar to a second degree burglary as described here by an Orange County lawyer (since it's a felony the law should be the same around the country):
http://www.theoclawyer.com/Burglary-Cases.html

I'd say we're about a wash. Clinton committed a minor crime followed by perjury. Nixon covered up an attempted burglary but to my knowledge did not commit any crime directly.

But again we're getting off topic. Dismissing Clinton's crime as trivial doesn't address MS Fowler's assertion that the media loves people who out Republican crimes and loathes or ignores those who out Democratic crimes.

Thanks,

Jeff
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post #23 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-10-2005, 09:04 PM
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RE: Its a lot to ask, but, How about a little consistency?

"implicated in several disappearances". What a load of right wing bullshit. Implicated by who? Lying sack of shit conspiracy theorists? Clinton, the most investigated man in history, after millions of dollars worth of hundreds of FBI agents time and the best they can find is a blow job, and you pass that garbage off like it was truth. You got proof? Post it. Otherwise, go find a Vince Foster Was Killed for Communism web site, with the rest of the nut cases.


Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #24 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-10-2005, 09:09 PM
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RE: Its a lot to ask, but, How about a little consistency?

Sorry, no I didn't mean to pass it off as truth (implicated was probably too strong of a word). The truth is that the man was acused of this in the court of public opinion much in the same way Bush is accused of mass murder in the court of public opinion. I was simply intending to pass on another possibility as to why Clinton may have been targeted for a minor offense.

Thanks,

Jeff
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post #25 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-10-2005, 09:47 PM
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RE: Its a lot to ask, but, How about a little consistency?

Quote:
jdbower - 6/10/2005 10:09 PM

Sorry, no I didn't mean to pass it off as truth (implicated was probably too strong of a word). The truth is that the man was acused of this in the court of public opinion much in the same way Bush is accused of mass murder in the court of public opinion. I was simply intending to pass on another possibility as to why Clinton may have been targeted for a minor offense.
The only difference is the proof of the former......Unless they're carrying Tabouli in those body bags.

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post #26 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-10-2005, 09:58 PM
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RE: Its a lot to ask, but, How about a little consistency?

Quote:
The only difference is the proof of [mass murder]......Unless they're carrying Tabouli in those body bags.
(sorry for editing your quote, I hate the multi-quote format and I hope that I didn't affect the intended phrasing significantly)

Not exactly, that's more of a political viewpoint than a legal one. It's just propaganda to believe that the primary reason for the invasion was to kill a bunch of people. I will concede that "some people consider any deaths in combat to be mass murder by the state, though this is not a generally held position."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_murder

Clearly I don't hold the position described, so let's change this to the insinuations that Bush masterminded the 9/11 attacks which we should all find ridiculous (I've heard Bush called many things, but a "mastermind" is not one of them).

Thanks,

Jeff
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post #27 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 12:19 AM
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RE: Its a lot to ask, but, How about a little consistency?

Quote:
jdbower - 6/10/2005 9:59 PM

The problem is that this is the top of a slippery slope. If the question was irrelevant then he should have answered so - there is no excuse for lying. If the president is excused from the "petty crime" of perjury, where does the line get drawn? Covering up a burglary I would say is pretty close to on par. Getting drunk and driving some poor woman off a bridge is certainly much worse. Should we define certain crimes that are legal for each level of politician?
It is only a slippery slope when the Special or other Prosecutor does not commit a crime, such as entrapment, while he is "out to get" you. Here is the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of "entrapment" just in case you can't find it:

Main Entry: en·trap·ment
Pronunciation: -m&nt
Function: noun
1 a : the action or process of entrapping b : the condition of being entrapped
2 : the action of luring an individual into committing a crime in order to prosecute the person for it


President Clinton was put in a position to commit the crime of perjury by questioning in front of the Grand Jury, which was being covered by the world-wide press, when the Special Prosecutor asked a question of a personally and professionally very embarrassing nature, one that if answered honestly would cause great pain to his family, and one which had no material bearing on the investigation or "charges" being brought before the Grand Jury. In the end the only crime he was "charged" with and found guilty of was telling the Grand Jury he did not have sex with Ms. Lewinski. I think that meets the definition in the dictionary, and I am certain it meets the definition used in criminal court cases.

Call "it" a slippery slope if you like. The goo that is causing you to lose traction, and steepness of the slope in this case is more a factor of how sleezy and underhanded you think the investigators and the prosecutors can be while levelling false charges against an individual. Once you find such activities acceptable for say, Presidents you hate for personal reasons, it is not long until you tolerate it for anyone you don't like. It is a short step further down this hill and you have no Bill of Rights left.
Quote:
jdbower - 6/10/2005 9:59 PM
In another vein, Clinton was also implicated in several disappearances. Perhaps perjury was the only thing that had legitimate proof - akin to jailing Capone for tax evasion.
Ludicrous. The Republican Party, with their Storm Trooper Kommandant Kenneth Starr, spent more on the Clinton Whitewater investigation than was likely spent pursuing Al Capone. None of the Whitewater charges were sustained. People were threatened and then jailed to coerce false testimony. No evidence was forthcoming. Al Capone was not entrapped by anyone when he finally failed to pay his taxes. That was a problem of his own making, entirely. If you are going to make a point, anywhere, on anything, how about doing it without burying it in bullshit?
Quote:
jdbower - 6/10/2005 9:59 PM
On the other hand, if the Prez forgets to pay for a pack of gum the cost to the country for putting him away for a month is far too great a price to pay. But the president shouldn't have an exclusive to this privilege. Should a non-habitual offense be excusable to people of a certain level? If I don't make a trip to a trade show next week I jeopardize tens (hundreds?) of millions of dollars of taxable revenue. Is it really worthwhile to lock me up for a petty crime?
Get bent. Is it really worth spending tens of millions of dollars investigating trumped up charges, and putting others in jail to coerce them to make false testimony, and then entrap a man into perjury to serve a politcal agenda? Your scales of justice need to be calibrated. Jim
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post #28 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 09:01 AM
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RE: Its a lot to ask, but, How about a little consistency?

I would still argue that it's not necessarily entrapment as it helps define the character of the witness (not being a lawyer and not having [OK, not wanting] access to the transcripts I can't make a judgment on the entrapment). Regardless of the motives, Clinton should have a grasp of the law and be able to recognize the entrapment and not answer.

I couldn't care less about the costs or the specifics of the trail (although I also believe that the cost to the taxpayers was far too great), going over in excruciating detail on past events is useless. I'm much more concerned with the larger question of what is an acceptable crime for a US president and, to MS Fowler's point, is there a double standard between republican and democratic presidents?

From my perspective, Nixon was an incredibly polite president by saving the taxpayers tens of millions by stepping down but I could see a very Ken Starr-like "trial" commencing.

Likewise, if Bush had lost the Florida election and then sued repeatedly in hopes that at least one recount ended up in his favor I could see a lot more bad press coming from it than when Gore did so.

Of course, since neither of these things actually happened it's easy to argue whatever we want.

Thanks,

Jeff
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post #29 of 42 (permalink) Old 06-11-2005, 12:03 PM
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RE: Its a lot to ask, but, How about a little consistency?

Quote:
jdbower - 6/11/2005 11:01 AM
I would still argue that it's not necessarily entrapment as it helps define the character of the witness (not being a lawyer and not having [OK, not wanting] access to the transcripts I can't make a judgment on the entrapment). Regardless of the motives, Clinton should have a grasp of the law and be able to recognize the entrapment and not answer.
Yeah, that's the ticket. The whole point of the rule against entrapment is to avoid pusuing and locking up people with "character" you suspect might be shady by not allowing you to set a stage where they are prompted to commit a crime. Wake up, wash your face, do something to make yourself a little more aware of what being an American is all about.

Quote:
jdbower - 6/11/2005 11:01 AM
I couldn't care less about the costs or the specifics of the trail (although I also believe that the cost to the taxpayers was far too great), going over in excruciating detail on past events is useless. I'm much more concerned with the larger question of what is an acceptable crime for a US president and, to MS Fowler's point, is there a double standard between republican and democratic presidents?
Then you need to understand your view of life being black and white where good is white and bad is black, is not shared by the majority of Americans. Most Americans actually commit minor crimes and expect when they do, they will be punished, if caught, in some manner that fits the crime. In order to administer such a concept of justice, one must be able to distinguish between literal interpretations of the law, the intent of the law, and the magnitude of the alleged transgression. Once you acknowldege there are shades of grey then you will see that crime and punishment for committing crime is not an all or nothing event.

Find another democratic President or politician to hold up for your example. Clinton got a blow job and lied about it in conjunction with a series of un-American activities sponsored by the United States Government. Getting stuck on Clinton seems to limit the intellectual capacity of neo-cons. Nixon committed crimes and repeatedly lied to cover them up. No one coerced him, no one set him up.

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jdbower - 6/11/2005 11:01 AM
From my perspective, Nixon was an incredibly polite president by saving the taxpayers tens of millions by stepping down but I could see a very Ken Starr-like "trial" commencing.
That is pretty funny. How much did he spend forcing the investigation that brought about his resignation? I gather you were not aware during this time period, either too young or not born yet. It apparently does nothing to hinder your ability to fabricate perspectives and offer them.

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jdbower - 6/11/2005 11:01 AM
Likewise, if Bush had lost the Florida election and then sued repeatedly in hopes that at least one recount ended up in his favor I could see a lot more bad press coming from it than when Gore did so.
Any evidence? Or is this just a suspicion? Sounds like you have conjured a convenient boogey man.

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jdbower - 6/11/2005 11:01 AM
Of course, since neither of these things actually happened it's easy to argue whatever we want.
I think you are being overly generous with your assessment of your contribution to the discussion. An argument should be based on facts, not how you "feel" about someone's "character" and other boogey men you can conjure. Jim
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RE: Its a lot to ask, but, How about a little consistency?

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jdbower - 6/10/2005 8:58 PM

Not exactly, that's more of a political viewpoint than a legal one. It's just propaganda to believe that the primary reason for the invasion was to kill a bunch of people. I will concede that "some people consider any deaths in combat to be mass murder by the state, though this is not a generally held position."
There simply is no justification for launching an invasion against a non-combatant, particularly against the wishes of all (not some, not most, but all) of said non-combatant's neighbors. Since there is no justification, "mass-murder" seems a reasonable (if emotionally charged) description.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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