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post #1 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-26-2005, 03:01 PM Thread Starter
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Civil War brewing in Republican Party between Frist and McCain?

The main contenders for the Republican nomination are, in the opinion of many, emerging. Sen. Frist, a nasty little religious fascist, seeks to catapult himself into the lead, counting on the fact that the core of the Republican Party that votes in the primaries are blue-nose pro-life Nazis like himself. His nemesis is obviously John McCain, who scored a major victory over Frist by forming the Centerist Coalition that defeated Frist's "nuclear option" in the Senate. The following article in Salon sums up the coming collision, in which McCain will try to re-establish the GOP as the party of the center-right, instead of the party that seeks to impose theocracy on the US. Will sanity return to the GOP? :


McCain vs. Frist
The Arizona moderate knocked out the Tennessee right-winger in the filibuster showdown. Does his victory foreshadow the 2008 primary?

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By David Paul Kuhn



May 25, 2005 | When Sen. John McCain stood before the microphone Monday night and announced the moderates' deal that averted the nuclear option, Majority Leader Bill Frist was nowhere to be found. He wasn't at the press conference. He wasn't a party to the deal. Despite orchestrating the showdown over the filibuster, Frist was left out of the compromise, looking like a fringe player in McCain's show.

If the confrontation over judicial nominees was an early battle among Republicans with an eye on the next presidential election, McCain, a leading centrist candidate, faced off against Frist, who is positioning himself as the conservative's conservative. And by any measure, McCain clearly won. But the filibuster drama may have exposed a larger truth about GOP efforts to succeed George W. Bush in 2008 -- neither McCain nor Frist is well-positioned to win the Republican nomination.


Indeed, the moderates' compromise may serve to undermine both politicians' White House ambitions. It all comes down to the right-wing constituency of the Republican Party. "No one had surfaced as the clear social conservative candidate even before this, and this serves to muddy it up that much more," Republican strategist Ed Goeas said. What's missing from the 2008 candidates, Goeas said, is "a Ronald Reagan conservative."

In failing to kill the filibuster and thus assure the approval of an endless raft of conservative judicial nominees, Frist didn't hand over the goods to the Christian right and may have paved the way for the rise of an even more conservative competitor. "There was only one way for Frist to win in the Republican Party, and that was for him to fully deliver," said Larry Sabato, director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia. "I was stunned to see the powerlessness projected by Frist and Reid, the majority and minority leaders on the floor [on Monday night]. Neither leader had many followers. They weren't running the show. Now look, you expect that of the minority leader. But you don't expect that of the majority leader. I thought he looked pale and worn and defeated. That is not the profile of a presidential nominee," Sabato said.

As the 2008 race heats up, McCain will undoubtedly reference Monday's compromise as proof that he is the beau ideal of comity, rising above the vitriolic Washington partisanship. But to many in the Republican base, he has never been a greater liability. In stopping Frist, McCain upset the very base he needs to win the Republican nomination. "When you are looking at a primary vote, what Republican primary voters wanted was to get those judges through, and what ultimately occurred is that Frist was pushing for that and McCain stopped that," said Republican strategist David Winston. "He didn't allow that to happen. When you go into the primary process, that's something that people are going to remember. And when you are looking at the Republican nomination, you are going to be looking at a lot more people who wanted all those judges to be accepted."

However Frist went down, he went down fighting for the religious right -- and that could help come primary time. The Iowa caucuses and New Hampshire primary are won by wooing the more active and more partisan members of each political party. "Of the folks who will attend [the Iowa caucuses] on the Republican side in 2008, you are probably looking at a good third that are active social conservatives," said Peverill Squire, a political scientist at the University of Iowa.

But Frist still has reason to fret. His failure to drop the bomb by triggering the nuclear option, may lead social conservatives to support long-standing conservative presidential hopefuls like Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas and Sen. George Allen of Virginia. "I don't think [Frist] will get much credit for going down fighting, because it looks as if he lost control of it because there were a group of people negotiating a compromise without him," Squire said. "Frist's problem, potentially, is that he comes off looking opportunistic."

It would not be the first time. Frist's presidential ambitions were marred this March over the Terri Schiavo debacle. Breaking with public opinion, in again attempting to appease social conservatives, Frist tried to usurp the judicial branch and force the courts to reinsert the feeding tube into the brain-damaged Florida woman. Adding ammo to his detractors, Frist said via a recorded message in April, at a rally coined "Justice Sunday," that the senators attempting to block President Bush's judicial appointments were "against people of faith." Frist's rhetoric, and his video appearance at the conservative effort to mobilize Christians around the filibuster fight, prompted Democrats to accuse the majority leader of playing the religion card.


It is a card McCain is least likely to play. The Arizona senator may disdain the "theo-cons'" hold on his party, but if he chooses to run as a Republican it is unlikely he will again declare a frontal assault on the religious right. As a candidate in 2000, McCain said during the primary contest that social conservative icons Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell were "agents of intolerance." Should McCain make one last run for the White House on the GOP ticket, he will likely attempt to compensate for past rhetoric by emphasizing his stance against abortion, while hoping to win with a coalition of independents and Reagan Republicans.


However the judicial battle plays out, Frist will continue to attempt to portray himself as a faith-based option to a McCain candidacy or that of other GOP centrists like Rudolph Giuliani. The majority leader's strategic recourse is political martyrdom, the candidate who went to the brink for the social conservative cause.

After all the spin has been spun, a McCain-Frist face-off may have more to do with the GOP of 2008 than the politicians themselves. Neither candidate owns a room when he steps on the podium. McCain's gravitas and Frist's genial smile notwithstanding, both men can come off stiff. With no heir apparent to President Bush, should the primary contest come down to Frist and McCain, the race will become nothing short of a fight for the soul of the Republican Party. And though McCain would almost certainly fare far better in the general election than Frist, the GOP establishment would be unlikely to back him.

Though McCain is a fiscal conservative and has come out against abortion, his journeys down the political middle have irked the Republican base. Case in point: when McCain joined Sen. Joe Lieberman in supporting legislation that would have closed the "gun-show loophole" for those wanting to skirt background checks when buying guns.

Yet never has McCain's centrism infuriated his party's base more than his refusal to support the nuclear option. Immediately following the Group of 14 compromise, the Republican base was up in arms. Where McCain will likely try to emphasize an outsize role in shaping the bipartisan accord, he will also bear the outsize brunt of the conservative resentment. "It reaffirmed what the Republican activists think about John McCain: He's a maverick, we can't count on him, he undercuts us," Sabato said. "And again, that's not the profile of a Republican presidential nominee."



Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #2 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-26-2005, 06:03 PM
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RE: Civil War brewing in Republican Party between Frist and McCain?

Lets hope calmer heads prevail. Frist needs to F*ck Off.
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post #3 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-26-2005, 07:07 PM
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RE: Civil War brewing in Republican Party between Frist and McCain?

You can have all your usual hyperbole and expected Nazi crap, but I dearly love the idea of a slug-fest between two asses competing for public adoration. I'd love for even more members of that party to cannibalize each other. Bye-bye, jerks.
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post #4 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-26-2005, 08:19 PM
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RE: Civil War brewing in Republican Party between Frist and McCain?

Quote:
kvining - 5/26/2005 2:01 PM

Where McCain will likely try to emphasize an outsize role in shaping the bipartisan accord, he will also bear the outsize brunt of the conservative resentment. "It reaffirmed what the Republican activists think about John McCain: He's a maverick, we can't count on him, he undercuts us," Sabato said. "And again, that's not the profile of a Republican presidential nominee."

Yes, I can see that the man should be ostracized for placing the welfare of his country before that of his political party. How sad that that's actually considered a handicap... I may not agree with McCain 100% of the time, but I generally respect his ideals, which are head and shoulders above most of the self-serving Washington fleabags...

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post #5 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-26-2005, 09:33 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Civil War brewing in Republican Party between Frist and McCain?

My personal opinion is that the downward slide of this nation became apparent when some AWOL coward beat a genuine war hero for the presidential nomination in 2000. Money and special interest showed that they were now in charge, and democracy was dead.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #6 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-26-2005, 09:46 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Civil War brewing in Republican Party between Frist and McCain?

Quote:
Botnst - 5/26/2005 9:07 PM

You can have all your usual hyperbole and expected Nazi crap, but I dearly love the idea of a slug-fest between two asses competing for public adoration. I'd love for even more members of that party to cannibalize each other. Bye-bye, jerks.
Quote:
Shane - 5/26/2005 8:03 PM

Lets hope calmer heads prevail. Frist needs to F*ck Off.
Bush made a huge error when he manuavered Lott out as Majority Leader and shoved a religious Nazi fuck like Frist down the Senate's throat - he's not the the "Majority Leader", he's the leader of a particular wing of the Republican Party - the Redneck State religious fascists who want to take over the Judiciary so they can take away women's rights and the religious rights of those who don't think like them. I think the moderate Republicans in the Senate have come to realize this, and have essentially rejected him as "Majority Leader", and McCain may becoming the de facto Majority Leader of the Senate, a majority consisting of moderate Repubs and moderate Dems - if this is true, and the Bolton vote tonight shows it might be - then the end of Far Right fascist radicalism may be in sight, and sanity may return this country. Here's what the future looks like under Frist:

Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs
Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.

By Kevin Corcoran
kevin.corcoran@indystar.com

The Indianapolis Star

An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.

Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion.

Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall.

Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss the pending legal dispute.

The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school.

"There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian.

Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January.

"This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox."

The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him.

Bristol is not involved in the appeal and could not be reached for comment. She and Jones have joint custody, and the boy lives with the father on the Northside.

Jones and the ICLU also argue the order is so vague that it could lead to Jones being found in contempt and losing custody of his son.

"When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' " said Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?"

Some people have preconceived notions about Wicca, which has some rituals involving nudity but mostly would be inoffensive to children, said Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion & American Culture at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.

"Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them," Goff said. "Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There's not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region."

Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious studies at Western Kentucky University.

"The federal government has given Wiccans protection under the First Amendment," Snyder said. "Unless this judge has some very specific information about activities involving the child that are harmful, the law is not on his side."

At times, divorcing parents might battle in the courts over the religion of their children. But Kenneth J. Falk, the ICLU's legal director, said he knows of no such order issued before by an Indiana court. He said his research also did not turn up such a case nationally.

"Religion comes up most frequently when there are disputes between the parents. There are lots of cases where a mom and dad are of different faiths, and they're having a tug of war over the kids," Falk said. "This is different: Their dispute is with the judge. When the government is attempting to tell people they're not allowed to engage in non-mainstream activities, that raises concerns."

Indiana law generally allows parents who are awarded physical custody of children to determine their religious training; courts step in only when the children's physical or emotional health would be endangered.

Getting the judge's religious restriction lifted should be a slam-dunk, said David Orentlicher, an Indiana University law professor and Democratic state representative from Indianapolis.

"That's blatantly unconstitutional," Orentlicher said. "Obviously, the judge can order them not to expose the child to drugs or other inappropriate conduct, but it sounds like this order was confusing or could be misconstrued."

The couple married in February 1995, and their divorce was final in February 2004.

As Wiccans, the boy's parents believe in nature-based deities and engage in worship rituals that include guided meditation that Jones says improved his son's concentration. Wicca "is an understanding that we're all connected, and respecting that," said Jones, who is a computer Web designer.

Jones said he does not consider himself a witch or practice anything resembling witchcraft.

During the divorce, he told a court official that Wiccans are not devil worshippers. And he said he does not practice a form of Wicca that involves nudity.

"I celebrate life as a duality. There's a male and female force to everything," Jones said. "I feel the Earth is a living creature. I don't believe in Satan or any creature of infinite evil."



Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #7 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-26-2005, 10:27 PM
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RE: Civil War brewing in Republican Party between Frist and McCain?

SSSHhhhhhh! W will nominate that guy for the supreme court!

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post #8 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-26-2005, 11:21 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Civil War brewing in Republican Party between Frist and McCain?

As a moderate?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #9 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-27-2005, 09:58 AM
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RE: Civil War brewing in Republican Party between Frist and McCain?

Quote:
kvining - 5/26/2005 11:33 PM

My personal opinion is that the downward slide of this nation became apparent when some AWOL coward beat a genuine war hero for the presidential nomination in 2000. Money and special interest showed that they were now in charge, and democracy was dead.
I agree, t'was disgusting. But you're slightly mistaken. Clinton ran against Bush the Elder in 1992, not 2000. He was a draft-dodger, not AWOL. And it wasn't the primaries.

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post #10 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-27-2005, 11:45 AM
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RE: Civil War brewing in Republican Party between Frist and McCain?

Quote:
Skeezix - 5/27/2005 9:58 AM

Quote:
kvining - 5/26/2005 11:33 PM

My personal opinion is that the downward slide of this nation became apparent when some AWOL coward beat a genuine war hero for the presidential nomination in 2000. Money and special interest showed that they were now in charge, and democracy was dead.
I agree, t'was disgusting. But you're slightly mistaken. Clinton ran against Bush the Elder in 1992, not 2000. He was a draft-dodger, not AWOL. And it wasn't the primaries.
Yes, if you consider downward sliding a balanced budget, full employment and economic growth. Is the source of your confusion perhaps based on the fact you don't get more action than Clinton did?

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