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post #121 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-20-2005, 05:38 PM
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RE: Science, religion collide in Kansas debate

I wasn't even thinking of a future afterlife as i wrote that. I was thinking simply of this life; not that the afterlife isn't worth considering.
If you accept that there is a Creator, it stands that creatures may owe some obligation to that Creator. The Bible is the record of how the Creator has dealt with His creation over many years. It has authority because it is the Word of God. The Creator says, " Do not lie". I accept that direction from the Creator, simply because He is the Creator; not because there is some promise of future reward.
I readily admit that my views are not shared by all who call themselves "Christian"; but they are my views.
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post #122 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-20-2005, 05:54 PM
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RE: Science, religion collide in Kansas debate

Quote:
GermanStar - 5/20/2005 12:39 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 5/19/2005 9:30 PM

There you go with that amazing telepathic ability of yours.
Yes, we telepaths are an amazing bunch. I suppose that observation and the application of reason would seem like magic to some...
I observe and reason and in truth, don't give a flip what people claim to believe, not believe, or wish for other folks to believe about them. So long as there is no coercion involved I don't care if folks believe or disbelive in homosexual veteran Eastr bunnies on crack will save mankind from the Tralfammadorians. If the ol' boy wants me to believe he's a God-fearing believer in the Son of God, fine with me. I believe it. If you want me to believe your'e a Republican Buddhist, fine with me, I believe it. Go for it.

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post #123 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-20-2005, 06:06 PM
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RE: Science, religion collide in Kansas debate

Disrespecting IDEAS is what some folks do for a living: We call them, "scientists".

Disrespecting PEOPLE for their ideas is what some people do for a living: We call them, "politicians."

There are several of each who post to this forum.
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post #124 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-20-2005, 11:38 PM
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RE: Science, religion collide in Kansas debate

My skin is thick. I would just like the see the integrity of the board be a little higher.

I have to disagree with you on the afterlife. Sure it is one of the beliefs of Christians. I do believe in the afterlife but being a Christian allows me to have a great blessed life here. That is the best part about being a Christian. After all, you can't see, feel or witness the afterlife. So I can't enjoy it until I get there...
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post #125 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-22-2005, 11:57 AM
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RE: Science, religion collide in Kansas debate

This has always been one of my favorite topics, even more so since TCP is posting.

Something no one has been able to explain to me is why evolution precludes religion. Yes, modern scientific theories often contradict the bible with respect to the age of the planet and the like but the bible also contradicts the bible in many of these areas. Even if the bible is the Word of God is was still written and translated by humans who would be arrogant to believe that they could understand an omniscient being. If we can make the leap to say that the bible must be interpreted and that we don't have to stone unruly children we’re most of the way there.

So, we have fossil evidence showing a bunch of transitional forms. We can show early humans all the way back to people not much different from small apes (we’ve all seen the Darwin picture showing the evolution of man). We are finding more transitional forms all the time, such as large mammals that appear to be able to walk on land but are more closely related to whales. We’ve even found what we believe to be the first creature to walk on land, the reason why nearly all animals have four limbs and five digits per limb. Transitional forms are rare because they are between a successful creature and a more successful creature.

Moreover we can observe mutations and evolution via natural selection in both nature and lab settings today. I remember reading about a species of squirrel separated long ago by a river (the grand canyon, perhaps?) which were now sufficiently different to be considered a new species. Evolution has a mountain of evidence that is constantly changing and, well, evolving based on new information.

The big argument against evolution? The human body and especially brain is far too complex to have evolved on it’s own. I can understand that belief (although I don’t subscribe to it). Does that mean that all this evidence is now meaningless? Why can’t a Supreme Being from any of the religions simply guide evolution? The bible says that God created man. Why does this have to be a Bewitched-style nose wiggle followed by a puff of smoke? Couldn’t God have created man by simply guiding the evolution of a set of self-replicating protein chains through a series of changes to become human? Surely the 15 billion years or so this took from the inception of the universe would appear to be no more than a week to an infinitely old and timeless being.

This isn’t a question of religion vs. science, it’s a matter of science being taught in science class and letting the student decide how to put this into a context that suits his or her spiritual needs. As far as religion being taught in school, in my public schools I learned a lot about religion from the ancient religions through the Big Three available today (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) as well as a smattering of eastern religion/philosophies. This is a critical part of the education process, where it becomes a problem is when one religion is preached as being better or more valid than another. And by the way, prayer IS allowed in schools. Students can pray all they want as long as it does not bother the other students and it is not lead by a teacher.

Thanks,

Jeff
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post #126 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-22-2005, 02:23 PM
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RE: Science, religion collide in Kansas debate

Quote:
jjl - 5/20/2005 6:19 PM

Quote:
Robschaef - 5/20/2005 6:14 PM

jjl,
I guess I didn't do a very good job of explaining myself. I never meant to say the God, or religion, or Christians should be off limits. I hope I didn't give you the impression that I am some feeble minded person that is swayed by what others think. Nor am I trying to push my beliefs on you. My point was, is it really necessary to tell someone that his or her beliefs are absurd? Is it really necessary to post a picture of piss on Christ? I have discussed religion with Satanists, atheist, scientist, etc. Very few have felt it necessary to be insulting about it. It is also irritating to read all the generalizations. I guess we live in a time when there is a lot of hatred towards Christians because off all of the issues that is currently being debated. It doesn’t help that the media is so willing to put the blame on all Christians based on what a few do.

Interesting comparing Carter and Bush. If Carter is the benchmark for the way a Christian president should observe his faith and Bush the benchmark the other way. Where would you put Reagan in the sliding scope of presidential imagery?
Well, I hope it goes without saying that I have no wish to cause others pain, but perhaps the way out of this is to develop a thick skin when it comes to disrespect for ideas. Disrespecting ideas about the nature of the world is different from disrespecting people and causing them needless suffering, but much of our suffering is self-inflicted. I don't mind if you think my ideas about the nature of the world wrong or silly and say so loudly - in fact it is a good thing and what science is all about - shoot scientific ideas down if you can and make yourself famous!
Amen bruddah.

I can say, "Amen" to an atheist, right?

Maybe I should say, "Positive affirmation!"
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post #127 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-22-2005, 04:12 PM
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RE: Science, religion collide in Kansas debate

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jdbower - 5/22/2005 1:57 PM

This has always been one of my favorite topics, even more so since TCP is posting.

Something no one has been able to explain to me is why evolution precludes religion. Yes, modern scientific theories often contradict the bible with respect to the age of the planet and the like but the bible also contradicts the bible in many of these areas. ...
I believe it's a question of faith. If folks believe that Holy Writ is the inerrant word of God Almighty, then not believing the literal word of God as illuminated by the Bible would be uh, disrespectful of God. That is how one gets smited. For those folks, God is a jealous God and separates wheat from chaff, dross from pure metal. People are purified by challenges to Holy Writ that cause them to reason in ways other than the Bible explicitly sets forth. These folks believe in the fundamental truth of scripture, they are fundamentalists. It is their God-ordained duty to proselytize.

On the far extreme of Christianity are folks like the "Friends"--Quakers. Though they have no strict dogma (they are strictly antidogmatic....okay), in general they don't believe in Jesus' divinity and certainly not the polytheistic trinitarian view. Nor do they think that the Bible is much more than instructive semi-historical stories.

Then there's the cosmically enriched polytheism of LDS.

All call themselves Christians. I take that at their word. The result is a religion of amazing breadth of philosophies and dogmas (dogmae? dogmai? dogmata?).

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post #128 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-22-2005, 05:43 PM
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RE: Science, religion collide in Kansas debate

Quote:
jdbower - 5/22/2005 12:57 PM
This has always been one of my favorite topics, even more so since TCP is posting.
Hey Jeff!

Good to know I'm not my only fan!

In the end, it is a question of science VS religion. While you and I could accomodate ourselves from an compromise, religious leaders tell us we would be antagonizing God.

Quote:
jdbower - 5/22/2005 12:57 PM
Even if the bible is the Word of God is was still written and translated by humans who would be arrogant to believe that they could understand an omniscient being.
We are being told that this is immaterial. Moreover, the dead sea scrolls show that nothing was "lost in translation" (dreadfull movie if there ever was one)

Quote:
jdbower - 5/22/2005 12:57 PM
Yes, modern scientific theories often contradict the bible with respect to the age of the planet and the like but the bible also contradicts the bible in many of these areas
Most evangelists will disagree with your statement. The Book's integrity is not in question, ever, the Bible is internally consistent (please read the old and new testaments only here, the book of Mormon IS full of contradictions, and is most definitely a creation of man) etc...
When Catholic leadership accepted that heliocentric model, that did not question the integrity of the Bible, Earth being at the center of the "world" was "interpretative" of scripture, not explicit.

Quote:
jdbower - 5/22/2005 12:57 PM
Why does this have to be a Bewitched-style nose wiggle followed by a puff of smoke? Couldn’t God have created man by simply guiding the evolution of a set of self-replicating protein chains through a series of changes to become human?
Judeo-Christian believers tell us that Genesis is NOT allegorical.

Quote:
jdbower - 5/22/2005 12:57 PM
Surely the 15 billion years or so this took from the inception of the universe would appear to be no more than a week to an infinitely old and timeless being.
Time has no meaning to the Creator, a week is no longer than a nanosecond (the discussions between Germanstar and Botnst about infinities has convinced the reader of that)
This takes me to a fundamental problem I have with the bible.
First let me say that I believe the people who wrote the Book were extremely smart, its internal consistency is admirable.
Second, if I remove myself from the text, I realize that time, love, and perfection are all problems.
Simply put, since time does not exist for the Creator, his creation, his ENTIRE creation is known to Him, all of his creation, "simultaneously" (for lack of a better timeless term). The faults of his people, the virtues of his people, the misactions and good deeds of his people, the preponderance of his people to follow or reject His word, etc...
Why then would there me more than one covenant? When the covenant is made between God and his people, the shortcomings of such are already known to God. Why then the flawed covenant? If God is ominscient, he knowns we will fail. If he thinks we can somehow rise to the occasion, he does not know all things! Unless... Maybe Albert was wrong, God does play dice.
Why a need for a new covenant, can't fo things right the first time? Behold people of Benzworld, we have an imperfect God on our hands, the universe could disappear even as I am here farting in my chair...

I feel so miserable without you; its almost like having you here.
-- Stephen Bishop
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post #129 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-22-2005, 06:16 PM
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RE: Science, religion collide in Kansas debate

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tcp_ML500 - 5/22/2005 7:43 PM
Quote:
jdbower - 5/22/2005 12:57 PM
...but the bible also contradicts the bible in many of these areas
Most evangelists will disagree with your statement. The Book's integrity is not in question, ever, the Bible is internally consistent (please read the old and new testaments only here, the book of Mormon IS full of contradictions, and is most definitely a creation of man) etc...
I'll grant you that most of the actual inconsistencies can be chalked up to more of a matter of interpretation (were Adam and Eve created at the same time or was Eve made from Adam's rib at a later date - either way I don't relish the idea of being their kid and having to go forth and multiply with my own sister(s)...).

Everything you need to know about the Book of Mormon you can find out from a South Park episode. [:D]

Quote:
tcp_ML500 - 5/22/2005 7:43 PM
When Catholic leadership accepted that heliocentric model, that did not question the integrity of the Bible, Earth being at the center of the "world" was "interpretative" of scripture, not explicit.
I still don't see how evolution doesn't fall into this category. I guess we're still at the "excommunicate the heathen" stage before the church capitulates and reinterprets things.

Quote:
tcp_ML500 - 5/22/2005 7:43 PM
Judeo-Christian believers tell us that Genesis is NOT allegorical.
But who gets to decide what is? Who makes the decisions to say what is literal and what is figurative?

Mark 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death

Whose kid hasn’t said that “my damn mother won’t let me go to the party?�

Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?


Need I say more?

I guess what I’m wondering is how much of the anti-evolution movement is the vocal minority and how much is the majority? The vocal minority will never be silenced (nor should they, they have rights too). But do moderate Christians believe this dichotomy between science and religion as well? I just find it odd that God can coexist with microwave burritos but not with a small subset of scientific evidence.

Thanks,

Jeff
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post #130 of 147 (permalink) Old 05-22-2005, 06:22 PM
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RE: Science, religion collide in Kansas debate

But who created God?
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