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post #71 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-21-2005, 09:06 PM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Quote:
Zeitgeist - 5/21/2005 10:50 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 5/21/2005 7:46 PM

There ya go. Howsabout sending some money and love letters to the poor jihadists? They appreciate your support.
See Kirk's post above, to which I'd add your simplistic recipe for world politk; "You're either with the imperialists or you're with the Jihadists"...sounds sorta familiar, Texas familiar.
Does any particular word come to mind when one suggests that foreign powers should work against the freely elected, constitutional government of a sovereign nation, in time of war?
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post #72 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-21-2005, 11:03 PM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Quote:
Botnst - 5/21/2005 2:53 PM

Oh, "international law". To me, that is an oxymoronic phrase. I think what we mean by "international law" is agreed-upon relationships between sovereign liberal democracies. In other words, I suspect that if we asked the Cuba, China, N. Korea, Rwanda, Vietnam, Cambodea, Mozambique, Sudan, Libya, Iran, Khazakstan, etc to derive a set of laws for international behavior, you would have a different set. Wouldn't you suppose?

And who enforces this 'law'? The EU? Oh my, that should scare the heck out of N Korea, huh?

By whose standards should we abide, our own, with its gaurantees of liberty, rule of law, and constitutional popular government, or some other entity not responsible to the laws or constitution or people of this country?

So if the people, through their elected gov, decide on a course of action in international affairs, I am not especially going to give a damned about other folks. Citizens who disagree can change the government, which will change the course of government.

Other folks can help, get out of the way, submit, or stand on the sidelines and wring their hands.

B
Considering that we wrote most of the international law, you think we should not observe it? Kirk's statement might be "simplistic" but it cuts to the chase. You are saying the same thing, just being coy and elitist.

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post #73 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-22-2005, 12:29 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown



Attacks 'delay' Iraq rebuilding
www.bbcnews.com


Attacks on oil targets are costing Iraq millions
Too much money earmarked for rebuilding Iraq is being diverted to tackle security demands, the US official in charge of post-war reconstruction says.

William Taylor, who heads the Iraq Reconstruction Management Office, said rebuilding the country was a costly and dangerous business.

Mr Taylor disclosed that 295 American contractors and their security guards had been killed since April last year.

He said there was "a long way to go" in providing adequate services to Iraqis.

A United Nations survey released earlier this month found that Iraqi living standards had been plummeting with only just over half of the population having access to safe drinking water.

Oil suffering

Mr Taylor said the process of rebuilding Iraq after the US-led war and previous sanctions had only just begun.

"We recognise that Iraq is a risky place to do business," he said acknowledging that security costs had spiralled because of continued violence by Iraqi insurgents.

Even oil companies, which usually go to dangerous places, are waiting

William Taylor
Head of Iraq Reconstruction Management Office

"Because of the increase in insurgent activity, contractors have had to include better site protection, hardened vehicles for personnel transportation and trained security teams," he said, adding this accounted for up to 16% of all project costs.

"Even oil companies, which usually go to dangerous places, are waiting," he said.

The official conceded that the money set aside by the US was limited and that Iraq would need foreign investment.

Damning survey

More than two years since the war, Iraqis still suffer from daily power cuts, and - in some areas - from contamination of drinking water by sewage.

In 2004, a year after the fall of Saddam Hussein, some 22,000 households were questioned by the UN about their lives.

The survey found that only just over a third of households were connected to a sewage network - and that almost a quarter of young children were chronically malnourished.

The report says that while the infrastructure exists to allow access to basic supplies - like electricity and clean running water - it is not reliable.



Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #74 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-22-2005, 07:46 AM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Quote:
old300D - 5/22/2005 1:03 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 5/21/2005 2:53 PM

Oh, "international law". To me, that is an oxymoronic phrase. I think what we mean by "international law" is agreed-upon relationships between sovereign liberal democracies. In other words, I suspect that if we asked the Cuba, China, N. Korea, Rwanda, Vietnam, Cambodea, Mozambique, Sudan, Libya, Iran, Khazakstan, etc to derive a set of laws for international behavior, you would have a different set. Wouldn't you suppose?

And who enforces this 'law'? The EU? Oh my, that should scare the heck out of N Korea, huh?

By whose standards should we abide, our own, with its gaurantees of liberty, rule of law, and constitutional popular government, or some other entity not responsible to the laws or constitution or people of this country?

So if the people, through their elected gov, decide on a course of action in international affairs, I am not especially going to give a damned about other folks. Citizens who disagree can change the government, which will change the course of government.

Other folks can help, get out of the way, submit, or stand on the sidelines and wring their hands.

B
Considering that we wrote most of the international law, you think we should not observe it? Kirk's statement might be "simplistic" but it cuts to the chase. You are saying the same thing, just being coy and elitist.
I have no idea who wrote most of international law. I'd hazard a guess that most of it derives from Roman law, European codes of chivalry, and European maritime law. (Rather Eurocentric. I wonder what it would have been like had say, countries from Tajikistan to Manchuria played the key roles).

Since the USA wasn't an interesting player internationally until after WWI, I doubt our influence on international law extends much before our earliest international achievement: invention of that pinnacle of ineffectual law, the "League of Nations".

I may be wrong.

And you obey your puppetmasters.
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post #75 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-22-2005, 09:44 AM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Quote:
Botnst - 5/21/2005 8:06 PM
Does any particular word come to mind when one suggests that foreign powers should work against the freely elected, constitutional government of a sovereign nation, in time of war?
...hmmmm, no particular word comes to mind, but a particular phrase does; "It's about time buddy"

Wait, you said in a time of war...what war? whose war?
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post #76 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-22-2005, 01:40 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Quote:
Botnst - 5/22/2005 9:46 AM

Quote:
old300D - 5/22/2005 1:03 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 5/21/2005 2:53 PM

Oh, "international law". To me, that is an oxymoronic phrase. I think what we mean by "international law" is agreed-upon relationships between sovereign liberal democracies. In other words, I suspect that if we asked the Cuba, China, N. Korea, Rwanda, Vietnam, Cambodea, Mozambique, Sudan, Libya, Iran, Khazakstan, etc to derive a set of laws for international behavior, you would have a different set. Wouldn't you suppose?

And who enforces this 'law'? The EU? Oh my, that should scare the heck out of N Korea, huh?

By whose standards should we abide, our own, with its gaurantees of liberty, rule of law, and constitutional popular government, or some other entity not responsible to the laws or constitution or people of this country?

So if the people, through their elected gov, decide on a course of action in international affairs, I am not especially going to give a damned about other folks. Citizens who disagree can change the government, which will change the course of government.

Other folks can help, get out of the way, submit, or stand on the sidelines and wring their hands.

B
Considering that we wrote most of the international law, you think we should not observe it? Kirk's statement might be "simplistic" but it cuts to the chase. You are saying the same thing, just being coy and elitist.
I have no idea who wrote most of international law. I'd hazard a guess that most of it derives from Roman law, European codes of chivalry, and European maritime law. (Rather Eurocentric. I wonder what it would have been like had say, countries from Tajikistan to Manchuria played the key roles).

Since the USA wasn't an interesting player internationally until after WWI, I doubt our influence on international law extends much before our earliest international achievement: invention of that pinnacle of ineffectual law, the "League of Nations".

I may be wrong.

And you obey your puppetmasters.
The majority of International Law is based on the Geneva Convention, the UN Charter, and the precedent setting decisions of the Nuremburg Tribunals, all of which we were willing parties to and participants of. The Nuremburg Tribunals held that Aggressive War and Wars of Occupation are crimes against humanity, as does the UN Charter.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #77 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-22-2005, 02:19 PM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Makes sense to me, Mr K. All of which are western European/American innovations. We think they're "universal" or "international" because we impose them on others and voluntarily on ourselves.

The degree and manner in which the definitions were sufficiently certain to the US gov, else Congress would not have acted as it did, nor would the admin have been acting legally by our own laws. But Congress and Executive acted constitutionally, so our laws were followed. I'm betting historians will fuss about the issue of legality for decades. Heck, historians still argue about the legalisms and legality of the Peloponnesian Wars, 2,500 years ago.

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post #78 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-23-2005, 08:24 AM Thread Starter
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Sure Botnst. Everybody is in such a quandry over whether murder is murder. I'm not having much of a problem myself, because I have this odd opinion that when you make up excuses to make war on a nation, and use military weapons on essentially defenseless civilian population centers against a nation that neither attacked you and presented no threat, than that constitutes the same war crimes we found the Nazis guilty off. If that is the company you wish to keep, well, seig fucking heil.


Car bomb kills 4 at Baghdad restaurant
Aide to Iraqi prime minister's office dies in drive-by shooting
Monday, May 23, 2005 Posted: 9:50 AM EDT (1350 GMT)


BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A car bomb exploded Monday outside a popular Baghdad restaurant, killing four Iraqis and wounding more than 110 others, an Iraqi emergency police official said.

The lunchtime blast caused major structural damage to the Habyibna restaurant and destroyed 16 cars in a Shiite Muslim neighborhood outside the capital's Sadr City, police said.

The official said that police suspect sectarian violence because most of the restaurant patrons were followers of militant Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

Earlier Monday, gunmen killed an adviser to the office of Iraqi transitional Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari in central Baghdad, authorities said.

The adviser, Maj. Gen. Wael al-Rubaie, and his driver died in a drive-by shooting on a main thoroughfare, police said.

The Iraqi Ministry of State for National Security Affairs said al-Rubaie was "assassinated by the treacherous and criminal hand of terrorism while on his way to work."

Another high-ranking Iraqi government official died Sunday in a drive-by shooting.

Ali Mossa Selman, director general of the Trade Ministry's Commercial and Financial Control Department, was en route to work when attackers opened fire on his car in western Baghdad, police said.

The assassins also killed Selman's driver, police said.

Al-Sadr joins peace coalition
Al-Sadr has joined with other Shiite and Sunni Muslim representatives to search for a way to end sectarian violence in Iraq, an official with Sadr's office said Monday.

Sheikh Abd al-Hadi Darraji said that al-Sadr has spoken with Muslim Scholars Association leader Sheikh Harith al-Dhari and Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution chairman Sayyid Abd al-Aziz al-Hakim.

The three leaders agreed to form councils representing their parties to search for a peaceful solution and to discuss accusations of tit-for-tat killings traded between the Sunni and Shiite parties.

Darraji said the first meeting would take place in the next few days.

Four prominent Sunni imams have been assassinated and a number of imams have been arrested in recent days, which has prompted a three-day Sunni mosque strike that is set to end Monday evening.

Sheik Abd al-Ghaffour al-Samaraie, a member of the Muslim Scholars Association and head of the Sunni Endowment, said that the Iraqi government has released "a significant number" of the imams.The Sunnis are a minority group in Iraq that held power under ousted leader Saddam Hussein. Most stayed away from polling places during the January 30 election. Much of the insurgency is taking place in the so-called Sunni Triangle, west of Baghdad.

The majority-Shiite United Iraqi Alliance and the Kurdish Alliance respectively placed first and second in the election. After months of negotiations, however, several available minister posts have been given to Sunnis.

Other developments

In an attempt to limit insurgent activity, U.S. soldiers and Iraqi security forces launched Operation Squeeze Play on Sunday in western Baghdad, detaining a number of suspected terrorists, a U.S. military statement said. The suspects face questioning, the statement said.


A trio of suicide bombers targeted a U.S.-led coalition base Monday in Samarra, north of Baghdad, wounding three American soldiers, an Army spokesman said. Maj. Richard Goldenberg said two car bombs exploded at the perimeter of the base, killing the drivers.


A suicide car bomber killed five members of security team traveling with the convoy of a Patriotic Union of Kurdistan official on Monday, police said. Eight civilians were wounded in the attack near the city of Tuz Khurmatu, about 20 miles (30 km) south of Kirkuk, police said.


On Sunday, two insurgent attacks on U.S. forces in the northern city of Mosul killed three soldiers and wounded a fourth, the military said. Another U.S. soldier died Sunday when a car bomb exploded near an Army patrol north of the north-central city of Tikrit, the military said. Since the start of the war in 2003, 1,635 U.S. troops have died in Iraq.


Three Romanian journalists and their Iraqi-American translator were freed after nearly two months in captivity, a spokesman for Romania's president said Sunday. The four are safe and healthy, the spokesman said. Journalists Marie Jeanne Ion, Sorin Miscoci and Ovidiu Ohanesian and Iraqi-American translator Mohamad Munafhad were kidnapped March 28. Details were unavailable about how the four were freed. They joined Romanian authorities Sunday and would be brought back to Romania, the spokesman said. (Full story)

CNN's Enes Dulami, Kevin Flower and Mohammed Tawfeeq contributed to this report.


Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #79 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-24-2005, 11:06 AM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

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post #80 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-24-2005, 12:47 PM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Quote:
Botnst - 5/22/2005 7:46 AM

Quote:
old300D - 5/22/2005 1:03 AM

Quote:
Botnst - 5/21/2005 2:53 PM

Oh, "international law". To me, that is an oxymoronic phrase. I think what we mean by "international law" is agreed-upon relationships between sovereign liberal democracies. In other words, I suspect that if we asked the Cuba, China, N. Korea, Rwanda, Vietnam, Cambodea, Mozambique, Sudan, Libya, Iran, Khazakstan, etc to derive a set of laws for international behavior, you would have a different set. Wouldn't you suppose?

And who enforces this 'law'? The EU? Oh my, that should scare the heck out of N Korea, huh?

By whose standards should we abide, our own, with its gaurantees of liberty, rule of law, and constitutional popular government, or some other entity not responsible to the laws or constitution or people of this country?

So if the people, through their elected gov, decide on a course of action in international affairs, I am not especially going to give a damned about other folks. Citizens who disagree can change the government, which will change the course of government.

Other folks can help, get out of the way, submit, or stand on the sidelines and wring their hands.

B
Considering that we wrote most of the international law, you think we should not observe it? Kirk's statement might be "simplistic" but it cuts to the chase. You are saying the same thing, just being coy and elitist.
I have no idea who wrote most of international law. I'd hazard a guess that most of it derives from Roman law, European codes of chivalry, and European maritime law. (Rather Eurocentric. I wonder what it would have been like had say, countries from Tajikistan to Manchuria played the key roles).

Since the USA wasn't an interesting player internationally until after WWI, I doubt our influence on international law extends much before our earliest international achievement: invention of that pinnacle of ineffectual law, the "League of Nations".

I may be wrong.

And you obey your puppetmasters.
I'm in a quandary here. I know you cannot possibly so stupid as to maintain you don't know who wrote "most of international law", but you write like you've really given it some thought, in reality just being completely obtuse. So what are you really trying to say?

OBK #35

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