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post #61 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-21-2005, 11:33 AM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

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Botnst - 5/16/2005 12:51 PM
I don't separate moral from political.

Moral choices that involve more than one person are inherently political.

Political deliberations and decisions are either moral or immoral.
I don't separate bad from political.

Bad choices that involve more than one person are inherently political.

Political deliberations and decisions are either bad or not bad.

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post #62 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-21-2005, 11:34 AM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Quote:
Botnst - 5/16/2005 12:51 PM
I don't separate moral from political.

Moral choices that involve more than one person are inherently political.

Political deliberations and decisions are either moral or immoral.
I don't separate corrupt from political.

Corrupt choices that involve more than one person are inherently political.

Political deliberations and decisions are either corrupt or not corrupt.

I feel so miserable without you; its almost like having you here.
-- Stephen Bishop
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post #63 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-21-2005, 11:35 AM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Quote:
Botnst - 5/16/2005 12:51 PM
I don't separate moral from political.

Moral choices that involve more than one person are inherently political.

Political deliberations and decisions are either moral or immoral.
I don't separate stupid from political.

Stupid choices that involve more than one person are inherently political.

Political deliberations and decisions are either stupid or not stupid.

I feel so miserable without you; its almost like having you here.
-- Stephen Bishop
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post #64 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-21-2005, 11:41 AM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

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Botnst - 5/21/2005 11:17 AM

Quote:
kvining - 5/17/2005 7:48 PM

Quote:
Botnst - 5/16/2005 7:50 PM

Quote:
Zeitgeist - 5/16/2005 6:06 PM

...and supporting murder and murderers is still wrong.
...and killing is always murder?

Neither of you are that simple.
There is quite a body of international law on how and why war should be waged to be considered a just war. The vast majority of it was developed by American jurists who served in Nuremburg after the war. If you familiarized yourself with it, a light might come on inside your skull, illuminating George Bush as the mass-murdering psychopath that he is.
I am vaguely familar with some of it. But I am no lawyer nor have I ever slept with one.

From what I have read, the overwhelming majority of american law scholars do not believe that the adventure is illegal. On the contrary, the administration scrupulously made its' case and Congress acted on it. Therefore, the war is legal and so is our occupation.

Concerning our current campaign, military and civilian lawyers in and out of gov, for and against this war have been meticulously examining everything for legality. I think Ramsey Clarke is about the only guy who has taken a totally negative attitude.

If you look at the treatment of civilians, PW's, enemy combatants, jailed political leaders, etc, you will find a constant paper trail of lawyering. Sometimes the people fail in their duty. Sometiems they get away with it. But most of the people do their duty in accordance with law and command authority.

In contrast to every point above, we have the insurgency.
You might be hung on a question of perspective or question of detail.
It may have followed all the rules we deem appropriate to enter a war "legally" within the confines of our body of law, and still, may be flying in the face of international law. Should we care? It depends! In this case, we are the perpetrators so we should probably hide behind the US legality of the matter, not withstanding the, let's be kind, faulty intelligence that had Congress vote Yes to an intervention in Iraq.

Take another muh more benign matter, say Mexico and Canada had less stringent polution standards than us and installed very poluting industry all along our common borders. They respected their polution laws/standards, regardless of international standards, and certainly regardless of ours. Would we care then? Who would we appeal to?

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post #65 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-21-2005, 02:53 PM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Oh, "international law". To me, that is an oxymoronic phrase. I think what we mean by "international law" is agreed-upon relationships between sovereign liberal democracies. In other words, I suspect that if we asked the Cuba, China, N. Korea, Rwanda, Vietnam, Cambodea, Mozambique, Sudan, Libya, Iran, Khazakstan, etc to derive a set of laws for international behavior, you would have a different set. Wouldn't you suppose?

And who enforces this 'law'? The EU? Oh my, that should scare the heck out of N Korea, huh?

By whose standards should we abide, our own, with its gaurantees of liberty, rule of law, and constitutional popular government, or some other entity not responsible to the laws or constitution or people of this country?

So if the people, through their elected gov, decide on a course of action in international affairs, I am not especially going to give a damned about other folks. Citizens who disagree can change the government, which will change the course of government.

Other folks can help, get out of the way, submit, or stand on the sidelines and wring their hands.

B
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post #66 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-21-2005, 04:45 PM Thread Starter
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

Cut the shit Botnst. Why not just put it in one sentence: "We're big and strong, so fuck everybdoy else." I think that sums up your view of international law.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #67 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-21-2005, 04:48 PM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

The best thing "other folks" can do is unite against the US and stand in solidarity against US imperial hegemony. The problem is we've got so many little countries (see the Coalition of the Killing) over a barrel that they can't do the right thing for fear of facing devastating economic sanctions from the world's bully of first resort.
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post #68 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-21-2005, 08:44 PM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

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kvining - 5/21/2005 6:45 PM

Cut the shit Botnst. Why not just put it in one sentence: "We're big and strong, so fuck everybdoy else." I think that sums up your view of international law.
You're simple-minded summation reflects on you.
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post #69 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-21-2005, 08:46 PM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

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Zeitgeist - 5/21/2005 6:48 PM

The best thing "other folks" can do is unite against the US and stand in solidarity against US imperial hegemony. The problem is we've got so many little countries (see the Coalition of the Killing) over a barrel that they can't do the right thing for fear of facing devastating economic sanctions from the world's bully of first resort.
There ya go. Howsabout sending some money and love letters to the poor jihadists? They appreciate your support.
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post #70 of 152 (permalink) Old 05-21-2005, 08:50 PM
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RE: Iraq: Meltdown

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Botnst - 5/21/2005 7:46 PM

There ya go. Howsabout sending some money and love letters to the poor jihadists? They appreciate your support.
See Kirk's post above, to which I'd add your simplistic recipe for world politk; "You're either with the imperialists or you're with the Jihadists"...sounds sorta familiar, Texas familiar.
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